The Nomadic Executive with Omar Mo - 
TNE051
Hosted by Omar Mo

Social Media and Digital Marketing Secrets in 2021 With Joey Held

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Clubhouse, TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest- SO many social media platforms to choose from, which one should YOU use? Our guest today has been in the digital marketing space for over 6 years. From social media to SEO and paid advertisement, Joey Held hosts two podcasts and knows the up to date secrets in the digital landscape for the 2021 year. Stay tuned to gain an edge in both your brand and business.

Today's Guest

Joey Held

Joey has more than 6 years of experience offering freelancing services catering directly to social media and voiceover work. Joey also runs 2 podcasts; "Good People, Cool Things" and "Parks n Wrecked."

Show Notes:

08:00- How the digital marketing has evolved

10:25- The advantages of being a having a podcast

12:25- Strategies for starting a podcast

15:50- Best practices in podcasting

27:40-  About an audio-dominant world and Clubhouse app

34:50- What platforms to use in digital marketing

Transcript

Social Media and Digital Marketing Secrets in 2021 With Joey Held | TNE051 TRANSCRIPT

Host: Omar Mo

Guest: Joey Held

Intro-

Let’s talk Clubhouse. Have you heard of the app yet? For anyone who’s ever been involved with social media, and chances are, if you’re an online entrepreneur, you definitely have been. Clubhouse is an app that makes scaling engagement ten times faster.

Imagine being at a convention of sorts, where the stage has a panel of speakers, right. The panel can bring audience members up on stage with them and give them a chance at speaking, and values literally being thrown around in spades. That’s Clubhouse for you.

It’s got massive potential in business, in networking, and only time will tell how it really evolves. In the same field, our guest today has been in the digital marketing space for over six years. From social media to SEO and paid advertisement. Joey Held hosts two podcasts and knows the up-to-date secrets in the digital landscape for the 2021 year.

Stay tuned to gain an edge in both your brand and business. Now, before we get started here, please hit that subscribe button and leave a review. We’re here to give you your weekly dose of online business advice and travel stories. So if that interests you, hit that subscribe button.

Remember, your reviews help make sure this podcast reaches the ears of people just like you. So, with that being said, here we go. My name’s Omar Mo and this is The Nomadic Executive. 

You're listening to The Nomadic Executive hosted by Omar from nomadables.com. Join Omar as he sits down and speaks with leading online entrepreneurs, remote workers and digital nomads about everything from business strategy to travel and lifestyle design. Together, we're here to help you achieve a life of happiness, health and freedom. And now here's your host, Omar Mo.

Omar:

All right. Joey Held. Pleasure having you here, man. Welcome to The Nomadic Executive.

You work for a digital marketing agency. So why don't you explain to my audience, where we get a little bit of value out of you here, what you do exactly at that digital marketing agency?

Joey:

Absolutely. So I'm a little bit of-- a colleague call me a Swiss Army knife one time, so I kind of like that, even though I don't actually carry a Swiss Army knife on me. So maybe just I carry myself and that'll help me open up things. But I do a little bit, it's fully integrated communications agency in communications and we do really all kinds of elements of a client's marketing advertising PR program. So that's things like media relations, creating content, social media, we've done podcasts for some clients, white papers case studies. All elements to help them better tell their stories. 

We have a primarily, a focus on B2B tech clients but have kind of run the gamut from an offshoot of whole foods, Whole Foods Market 365. They're slightly more affordable, more modern feeling stores, of which there is one in Houston. So I don't know, maybe you stopped by it.

Omar:

There is.

Joey:

I believe in Independence Heights is--

Omar:

I've been there.

Joey:

--where that one is. Nice. Some great food in there for sure. And it's, yeah, it's been a blast. I've been there for about six years and obviously, the digital landscape has changed quite a bit over [inaudible 05:08] so it’s been--

Omar:

As it always does.

Joey:

--exciting. Yeah. It's, you know, by the time we're done recording, probably three new things [inaudible 05:13] so it’s always fun to say.

Omar:

Or a new Facebook page.

Joey:

Brand new social network that eight billion people are already on. It'll be great.

Omar:

Hilarious. That's awesome, man. So, you wear many hats at your firm and obviously, when you first started, I'm thinking that it just puts you right away in the managerial position. You tried different things, dabbled in different things and then they figured that they could use you in multiple spots and kind of put you in that position where you are now. 

In terms of content marketing and digital marketing for what you do for these businesses, if I had to guess, it would vary the strategy, the platforms. Everything would vary from business to business, right. You cater to a specific business.

Joey:

That’s correct. I think that's the way to approach it really for any businesses, is not everyone's going to have the exact same strategy going forward. You can certainly borrow elements that you'd use across clients but you have to sit down with them, understand their goals. Sometimes they don't even know what their goals are. They might think, you know, this is like the one thing that'll help our business and it's like, sure, that's a nice piece to have but it's not the be all end all, end all be all. I don’t know. Whatever.

Omar:

Now that I think about it, I can't think of it either.

Joey:

Those things. It's not the end of the world if you don't get that one part. So--

Omar:

Let’s hope not anytime soon. You never know what 2021 but we'll see.

Joey:

Yeah, I know. It’s worse. Just making it through the days [inaudible 06:41].

Omar:

Knock on wood. So, you create, so there's like a funnel process when it comes into it, right? Like, you're going in, trying to find where your client’s ideal audience is, figuring out the platforms that work best for them, and then building a sort of funnel that drives eyeballs onto the content on the top side of the funnel and move them into-- eventually, what the end goal would be would be specific per user, right. Whether you're trying to get more downloads, let's say for an app or trying to get more email or an email list or something else, but there's always a product or a service on the other end that you're trying to sell. 

Do you guys handle everything from the top side of the funnel in the social media aspect, or the content or the blog or whatever you're dealing over there, the SEO driving traffic all the way ‘til the end of trying to get them a specific outcome in terms of an email list, download or purchases or conversions? Or do you guys stop somewhere in the middle and let them handle the rest? Or does that vary?

Joey:

It also varies from client to client. I would say for the most part, we're usually in more of the top to middle part of the funnel. But we do have some clients where it's, you know, across the board for it and it's certainly not like a, you know, 100 percent we can't step in another area. 

Like, if we're seeing something of like, hey this is, you know, this is something that you've posted on social that's doing really well, like but it's going to a landing page that only has broken links on it, like we're going to tell them, hey you're not going to get any signups or purchases if everything is broken here. 

And we've seen that sometimes of like, hey we're driving people to a landing page and then the related content is maybe five years old or something. And so, we're like, let's press more recent content. Obviously, things have happened that we can talk about here. And that helps give the page a fresher look and entices people to click through instead of just, okay I read that. That was nice. Now I'm going to bounce out of here.

Omar:

Right. So, you do a full suite of services, essentially.

Joey:

Yeah, it's been interesting. We're talking about how the digital landscape has changed. I would say even just the agency landscape has changed. You know, our company had more of a PR focus when it was first started in the mid 2000s and then over the years, has really developed into more of an integrated comm strategy, which I think is a good thing to have because a lot of times, people might think of PR as just pitching media, but there's so much more that goes into it. 

And I think that's part of an opportunity that we have to explain that to clients and show people that, Hey, there's more to it than simply like, hey reporter at the New York Times, cover our client. Like, there's a lot more that goes into it. And I think that's a smart strategy for any business is to look at everything from an overall perspective instead of just honing in on one thing,

Omar:

Yeah. How they can pretty much use everything for top of funnel from podcast, to social media, to PR press releases, to SEO on their website. I mean, it's so many different puzzle pieces to one general thing, right, and it's weird because in life, I feel like if you try to do ten different things, then you're going to fail compared to doing one thing really well. 

Well in the digital marketing space, at least from my opinion from what I've seen, it's the other way around, right. So, if you really spread your resources across multiple different areas of trying to gain traffic from SEO, to Instagram, to all this, that, yes you can specialize on one or two platforms especially where your audience is. 

But the more that you, the more platforms, the more ways that you're trying to bring in traffic, the more traffic you'll get. As opposed to like, let's say you go all in on Instagram and you don't really touch anything else, you're severely limited to how much traffic and what kind of audience and who is really coming to your product or your service or your website, right?

Joey:

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, I think that's a challenge for a lot of people is kind of that, not buyer's remorse but like the having so many options and you might not know where to begin. Again, that's going to vary from person to person but the important part is to get started somewhere and then continue to branch out. Yeah, if you're putting all your eggs in the Instagram basket, guess what? Zuckerberg just made an announcement that all content is now owned by Facebook and anything you post will immediately disappear and go into Facebook's Data, Archives. And then it's like, oh no, the only thing I know how to do is completely change now. So, it definitely is critical to be--

Omar:

You had mercy to the algorithm on those platforms, right? And this is why, and I think this is an interesting topic that we can go over here. You and I are both podcasters and we have been podcasting for quite some time. I believe, personally, well, not just I believe, it's a case. Podcasts are decentralized, right? Essentially, there's not really much of an algorithm going in there at all and if there's any algorithm, it's just purely based on search and it's not penalties like the Google algorithm or anything. It's just, Hey, SEO was able to find you, so now you're ranked a little bit higher, right? 

You don't get penalized if you start changing things. Otherwise, I mean you, can do Blackhat things to kind of go up on the podcasting search to be seen easier, but then they'll penalize you for that. But it's really decentralized. There's no algorithm that's running it like there is on social media platforms. Like on, like let's take Instagram for example. You start posting, and then when they decided to shadow ban you and not really show your posts to anybody, right, you're always at the mercy to the algorithm. 

So, I personally believe, at least the way that we do content marketing at our agency, is that we try to find a few relevant platforms for where their audience members would be and keep that for top of funnel but never really rely on it fully. We're always trying to drive traffic from that social to their podcast, to their community, and to their email list, where they can actually have a lot more control and they can actually make sales for the service, for their products. 

A lot easier that way and at the same time it's, they own it, you know. It's their email list, it's their show on the podcast, it’s their website. It's not like it's not their content whenever it's on Instagram, it's Instagram’s content. You know what I mean? So that's my thoughts on podcasting. 

Now, you said that you started podcasts for your clients and you've been able to monetize your own podcasts. So, at this point, you started two now as well as a couple different ones for clients. What's your process behind first starting that out, whether it's a podcast or a client or for yourself? Like, what's some applicable strategies I guess you can give us right away whenever you're first starting off a podcast?

Joey:

Well, I think putting thought into the name and artwork is something that is often overlooked. Sometimes, clients come with, Hey, this is what we want the name to be and I'm like, that is actually very good. Like, well done. I like it. Other times, they're coming to us for advice. For my podcast Parks n Wrecked, that was a pretty easy thing. We watch the show Parks and Rec. One of our hosts works in the Parks and Rec department but have never seen the show before, so we're like, hey we got to get you up to speed. 

So when people learn that you work in Parks n Wrecked and their first question is, oh have you seen the show Parks and Rec? Now you can say yes and you can, you know, recount a random season three episode or something like that. He probably doesn't remember a lot of them at this point but I-- And then, of course, we're drinking during it so there was almost no other name it could have been besides Parks n Wrecked. Like it just fit into place nicely. 

But then, also the artwork, I think, is something. You know, you've got people scrolling through. It's the equivalent of paging through bookshelf and trying to find a book that the title and cover speak to you and you, a lot of times, are going to be on your phone. And that's another element of it is, make sure it's readable on a mobile phone. You don't want to be cramming too many words or, you know, a lot of things that are kind of hard to see since people might be looking. It might be like that big and just super small for them to see. And so, some thought does need to go into that when you're starting. 

And then, the biggest thing I tell clients and anyone that really wants to start a podcast is make sure you build in the time for a consistent release schedule. I think what happens pretty frequently is like, I'm so interested in starting a podcast. They do a launch, maybe have a second episode, and then it kind of life gets in the way. You kind of peter out with that energy and then it's like, maybe I'll do one every month or like every couple of months when I can find the time for it and that's-- especially when you're starting out, a great way to just lose any kind of momentum that you had because people are liking your show. They're expecting that content, whether it's on a weekly or bi weekly basis. 

I wouldn't really go past bi weekly in terms of length in between shows just because I think that's too long of a gap to do, but there's just such a benefit of having that routine thing. I'm not necessarily tuning into a podcast if I know it drops it like Wednesday at 11 AM. Like, I'm not going to be waiting at the clock and it's 11:01 and I'm like, where is it? Where is it? But knowing that it's coming in every week and I can fit that into my schedule to listen to while, you know, running, working, whatever. And for people that have done that, I think they have much more successful launches and can keep up that momentum as their podcast is getting underway. 

As far as the content, I think that also can vary wildly based on the theme of the podcast. Obviously for Parks n Wrecked, we just go through the show.

Omar:

The episodes? Right.

Joey:

The first episode was the pilot episode, and so on. So that's a pretty nice format that we have just because the show already exists and so we can borrow off that in terms of like our scheduling for it. 

But for interview-based shows, you know, you might have a quarterly theme of like, I'm only going to do entrepreneurs in the sports space for one quarter and you can kind of tailor those episodes together, if that's the route you want to go. I'm also a big believer, just generally, do not script your podcast. I think A) it's so obvious that you are reading--

Omar:

Right. 

Joey:

Like, you can you can totally be reading like an ad read or a sponsor read but if your whole show is like that, like I feel like I'm almost reading an audio book but it's, you know, it's supposed to be a conversation and for the most part, we're not scripting our conversations. If you ever met someone who has--

Omar:

When it comes to an interview, I've never met somebody that scripts their conversations. No. I have done episodes so, like single-- especially when I first started that, I know there's a couple of episodes in there where I just was reading right off the screen of like my little notepad here and trying to make it sound like I wasn't reading it, but it was so obvious that I was reading it.

Joey:

It's a really tough skill to pull off, and I think all of us think we're better at it than we actually are. But then to the listener, it can sound very much like you are reading off a screen, reading off a page. And there's a difference like talking points, totally fine. You can, you know, have some questions you want to touch on, some topics you want to touch on, but if you're reading out an entire intro and just, you know, go in crazy with like line after line of text that you're reading, it's going to sound--

Omar:

Robotic.

Joey:

--so robotic.

Omar:

It’s just what it is. Yeah, I think you can-- so from what I've been experimenting with a little bit, so with an intro for a podcast, like maybe have like two lines that you read out, or maybe a review in there or something. But then after that, free ball it for most of it so it doesn't stand so, you know. 

Like I like to start my intros at least with two lines that are just kind of attention grabbers that I've written down, you know, and then from there, I kind of free ball it, introduce the guest a little bit and then go into the podcast episode. But I used to at least like 20 episodes ago even, so pretty recently, I used to read the entire intro word by word and it just sounded like I was doing an audible book, you know. It just didn't work out. So--

Joey:

You can sell that on Audible. Not on a podcast--

Omar:

Coming to you on Audible.

Joey:

And I think you touched on a nice point there, is having an attention grabber, because again, people are paging through podcasts, they might click on yours. And if it's their first time listening to a podcast and you have like a three-minute-long song intro that is just like endlessly play, I'm like, I get it. I like music too but like get into the content. So, you know, give us an opening line. 

A lot of podcasts I've heard, and I've done this with some of our client podcasts, have like, you know, a 15 22nd clip of your guest saying something that is a real quick take--

Omar:

A golden--

Joey:

--everyone in. And then, yes, you can do your intro music, which again, please do not make it three minutes long. Keep it simple. It’s just kind of a transition into the rest of the episode. But yeah, you need to grab people's attention or else, they’ll--

Omar:

When you mentioned that right there, when I think about it, and we were just talking about this right before this episode started, one of my best episodes, the most downloaded episode was one where I literally started the piece with what the guest was saying and it was just about to dive into a very emotional story. Saying something like, oh there was a time my grandfather died and this is the reason why and then blank and then cut to my intro right there. 

And I even had a friend text me later that week saying, Ha-ha you got me. The intro got me and made me listen to the entire episode. So I knew like that works, right? So leaving it at a cliffhanger with the intro of maybe your guest saying some golden piece of advice or using something that's at a cliffhanger. That works really well.

Joey:

That's, I mean, this is a tried-and-true formula. We've seen it back. Remember when you'd watch TV shows like every week? You know, it wasn't binge watching an entire season in a week.

Omar:

I remember that. 

Joey:

And you'd have to wait from week to week. And the end of the season was almost always some kind of cliffhanger to get people to come back and I'd be like, I don't want to wait three months for this but I'm going to be thinking about it all summer, that I'm going to be ready when it comes back in the fall to see, you know. Take King of the Hill, because I've been watching that on Hulu but--

Omar:

Do they have cliffhangers on King of the Hill?

Joey:

At least one season. Maybe a second one too, actually. Yeah, the end of the first season. Sorry for anyone that hasn't seen King of the Hill yet but the show came out 20 years ago, so statute of limitations, hopefully. 

There's a cliffhanger at the end of the first season where there's an explosion and it's like someone's maybe dead. Who's it going to be? Then the end of the third season, I won't even say who but if you've seen the show, you know this episode where someone is skydiving and their parachute doesn't open, and then so they just like in the field and you see all these birds fly away and everyone is like oh no, and they run over and then that's the end. I remember that one. I mean, I was like 13, I think, when that episode dropped and I was just like, oh no.

Omar:

That's how you know it held an impact, right? Like, you actually think about the cliffhanger 13 years later. 

Joey:

Exactly. Well done. Well done. 

Omar:

It's not anything different when it comes to media. Just make it appealing and gripping in a way where you’re throwing cliffhangers at the end, hooks in the beginning. It's just a different medium. A different format of doing the exact same things. 

I really liked your book analogy, you know, you're going through the library. I never thought of it that way. Where you're looking at the titles to see what really stands out to you and that's the book you pull out of the shelf. Right? And that's really what your SEO headlines and titles come up with in the first place that you come up with each episode. Like, does this look good to me? Yeah, I'll go ahead and listen to it. Interesting.

Joey:

Exactly, yeah.

Omar:

So, moving forward there then, the launch process for your podcast. Do you have any tips or strategies? Because, I mean, you work for a firm that sometimes as podcasts for people. Do you have any launching strategies to get people momentum right off the bat, besides the three that you gave us- the art, the headline and there’s one more--

Joey:

Consistency.

Omar:

Consistency, yeah. The art, the headline and the weekly consistency or bi weekly consistency or whatever. Do you have any other tips to get like right off the gate, any sort of launch strategy?

Joey:

I think launching multiple episodes at once is always a good strategy. You can also do a teaser episode of, hey this is going to be a show. Like a little, you know, five-minute teaser of it, and then drop a few episodes. But if you are creating good content, it's a little frustrating if I listen to one episode and then I'm like, oh I'd love to dive into more and then it's like, oh there's nothing left. And that can be tough because, you know, you're creating multiple episodes at once, which of course you can spread those out over time, you don't have to record them on the same day. But dropping two or three just so there's more to listen to that helps start off with a good, you know, good momentum there. 

And then from the promotional side, I'm going to go back to a book analogy of having kind of a street team to help you with the launch. So sending out emails to people, even texting them, picking up the phone with real detailed instructions of what you need for them to do, whether it's subscribing, leaving a review, even just listening to the episode and like where they can do it. There's, I'm still amazed even in 2021. Well, I guess I only had this conversation 2020, last year, you know, being like a month ago. But some people still don't know you have a podcast app on your phone, that comes in--

Omar:

I realized that recently.

Joey:

--an android phone. And I always thought for iPhones, as an iPhone user for longer than I want to admit, they, I always thought you couldn't delete Apple apps from the phone but apparently, that changed at some point and now you can. So I remember telling someone like, hey this is how you listen to a podcast. Open up your podcast app-- and they were like, I don't see it and they gave me their phone and I'm looking through and there's no podcast, that they had deleted it at some point because they're just like I'm never going to use this. And I think that is still kind of a barrier for some people have like they don't really know how to listen to podcast. So if you map it out really individually--

And I think there's value in sending tailored messages to people instead of just, you know, a blanket like, hey we've launched. Posting about it on social media. All still good things to do. But like you were saying, that list that you own of your email list, like use that to your advantage. And these are people that are already interested in something that you do, so they'll be a supporter of your podcast as well. And I think it can feel intimidating to reach out to people like that but most people, I think, are in your corner. They're not rooting [inaudible 25:40]

Omar:

Yeah. I mean, they're targeted, right? Your email list wasn't just like grabbed out of nowhere. Right? Like if they got to your website or something that's tailored around what the message that your podcast is speaking anyways, I mean, that's generally how it works. I mean, for Parks n Wrecked for example, the podcast that you're doing, I'm guessing you'll have an entire Parks n Wrecked website built for it or do you?

Joey:

Yes, we have a Parks n Wrecked website.

Omar:

Oh, you do?

Joey:

We're not at an email list. 

Omar:

Okay. 

Joey:

Because this was kind of the first like revolving around a show podcast I had done, so I think there's maybe a bit of a, probably a bit of a missed opportunity by not doing an email list for it. But at the same time, like I think, you know, we're in Parks and Rec fan groups on Facebook, posting the Parks n Rec Pinterest boards. There's a lot of Parks n Rec

Omar:

That’s targeted.

Joey:

--out there still. Yeah. So we're still targeting just in a slightly different way for that. But going back to that, like for the tailored messages, if you're doing a Parks and Rec themed podcast, it's pretty easy to go on Facebook. Look who's a fan of the show Parks and Rec and then reach out to those people and be like, hey I see you're a fan of Parks and Rec. I love it too. I started this podcast. Why not take a listen and, you know, let me know what you think? And that's, you know, not a super difficult thing to do. You might have 10 friends that follow, you might have 150. Maybe everyone you know loves Parks and Rec. And you can, you know, you don't have to write like 100 brand new words for everyone but include their name. Say like, hey I thought of you because of this and--

Omar:

Personalize it.

Joey:

Yeah, personalize it in a way that makes them think, oh they, you know, they want to hear from me. And they'll be more inclined to at least give you a listen and then of course you got to deliver on the content if you're speaking for an hour. 

Omar:

It's not just half. A whole puzzle piece there, right? You can't just half-ass either side. 

Joey:

Exactly. Exactly.

Omar:

It’s a good strategy targeting people specifically on Facebook groups and that's something I've been doing quite recently myself. Finding specific Facebook groups that are in your niche. But there's another strategy while we're on the line of reaching out to Facebook groups. I’ve realized you can reach out to the admins of these groups and just kind of say, hey like what do you think about the show? Like do you like it? Give him, listen, maybe even feature him as a guest at some point, you know, because he is an industry leader at one point. 

And then from there, they'll share those shows themselves with the people in their group and if they're very highly engaged in that group, then they'll tend to give it a listen a lot more likely if it's coming from the group admin versus someone that's just really random, right? So I’ve seen--

Joey:

[Inaudible 28:25] there and they're like, I got to listen up to this. They know what they're talking about.

Omar:

There you go. Yeah. And sometimes like with Facebook groups, more engaged than others. Like sometimes, a good leader, a good admin and sometimes they're just like really, really hands off. You know, it just kind of depends on the Facebook group. But that strategy can typically work especially with ones that are highly, highly engaged. 

Now, going back to something that you said earlier here, you said people don't really have podcast apps that much on their phone. But something that I have seen that is evolved at least over the past five years, is that a lot more people are listening to podcasts than they used to. It's much more audio dominant now. The world is moving towards audio dominant media as opposed to what it was five years ago, where it's purely social. You know, Instagram this, YouTube that. So that's something interesting that I found along with, even this new social media app. I'm not sure if you've heard of it yet or not but Clubhouse.

Joey:

Yes. Invite only.

Omar:

Yeah, invite only and it's purely audio-based. It's interesting. And so, I'm on there and I've been there for about two weeks now and of course, the podcasters made it on there first. So it's, from what I see, or at least it might just be the algorithm that's pushing this sort of content to me, but I see a lot of marketers, a lot of podcasters, and then a lot of cultural rooms around music and things like that, psychology. But it's mostly catered for marketers and podcasters right now, which is interesting. 

So the world is moving towards more audio dominant media and I personally believe over the next five years or so from now, especially if you're an early adopter like you and I with podcasts, and you're still an early adopter right now if you're hearing my voice, by the way. 

Joey:

Yes. Yes. 

Omar:

It's never too late to start a podcast especially this day and age, you’re really early. As the world moves towards more audio dominant media, I think podcasts will start rivaling YouTube, in terms of content consumption.

Joey:

I agree and I am very excited for it. And another element that I think is really super, super new is podcasting for internal comms. So you're, you know, you're running a business, you've got 150 employees, you might send out an email every week that's recapping everything that's going on in the company. But, you know, you could use a mailing service to see who's opening it and like see what percentage of employees are reading it, but instead of having that or like a two-hour team meeting to still--

Omar:

Wow. I have not thought of that. That is really smart.

Joey:

It’s because people can listen on their own schedule then, you know. It's not like, oh I need to block out time from 11 and 1 and I'm, I was working on something at 10:30 and I didn't quite finish it. So I'm going to be grumpy or distracted during this meeting--

Omar:

Yeah. They just play the button.

Joey:

--write that down.

Omar:

Right? Play the button while they're working. Audio comm. That could definitely up efficiency. Because I'm already noticing this just between friends and people that I connect with, right? I'll send a message on Instagram with a voice note or on Facebook, I'll send a voice note. And that alone with people sending more voice notes already is showing me that the world is moving towards more audio dominant media. Because three, four years ago, no one ever sent a voice note. I never got a voice note in my life and then all of a sudden, everyone wants to send a voice note, you know. So you can already see that--

Joey:

I remember the first time I got one. I was like, what is this? This is a thing you can do?

Omar:

It's interesting, isn't it? So I definitely see the potential behind the Audio Comm. Like you said, whether it's podcast format, whether it's just a simple voice note that just gets mass sent out and then you can-- maybe there's even some analytics behind it. Like, your employee consumed this much of the audio note or, you know, they could-- I don't know if that already exists, it probably doesn't, to be honest. But if someone made that, I'm sure there'd be a lot of uses for it. 

Joey:

Yeah. There's definitely some tools out there for specific like private podcasting where you do it to your company or maybe you just have a group of friends. You’re like, hey this will be fun to kind of have a thing. But you're not trying to get it out into the world, it's just for a smaller group of people like that. 

And yeah, I think like you're saying, it's still the early days of podcasting. I think there's a lot more from the analytic side of things that we'll see in growth like-- that of, hey this person listened through 81 percent and then we started talking about, I don’t know, Twilight and they immediately dropped off. They were like, nope. That's it. I'm out. And you can pinpoint that. It's like, oh maybe this is something our audience doesn't like and let's not go down that route again or--

Omar:

Have you found analytics like that yet? Like for your own podcast?

Joey:

I have not for my own podcast. I have heard they exist. I remember at a podcast movement conference, there were people from iHeartRadio talking and they essentially gave listeners like a dial to say like, this really disinterests me. I'm going to turn the dial all the way to the left. Or I really like this, I'm turning it to the right. 

And I thought, going back to the emotional thing, this was kind of the opposite. It was a show about like Hollywood gossip that they were talking about. And the masters were that weekend and one of the hosts was giving this like pretty heartfelt story about him and his dad golfing together, and his dad had died a few years ago or something like that. And so, you know, was tugging at the heartstrings a little bit. But the listenership just went real down. They were like, I'm not interested in this story about golf. Like, get back to the celebrity gossip, which I thought was pretty interesting because I feel like, normally, an emotional story is, like you're saying, like it draws people in. They want to hear why you're telling it and they want to hear the end of that story. But for a celebrity focused one, I guess talking about your non-celebrity dad is--

Omar:

Probably not the best idea.

Joey:

Not engaging. Yeah.

Omar:

So, I want to bring this altogether then, right. Because you're a digital marketing expert in the space of-- I mean, you have quite a wide variety of different things that you've done, including podcasting now, which you and I could probably sit here and talk about for ages, right. 

But bringing it back to my audience here. A lot of my audience consists of people that are either digital nomads, so they're out there in the world doing entrepreneurial things off their laptop, they have their own businesses, or they're doing freelancing, or they want to dive into either one of those digital spaces, right.

Now, there's a million different ways for someone to make money off the internet. But something that people keep hearing is, Hey, how do I build my personal brand? Because that's really, someone who's never really been in the online space before and never created a business or anything, they always feel like they need to start in that sense of building a personal brand of some kind. 

I personally don't believe you even need a personal brand to have a business online. There are so many different ways that you can do things. Like for example, the agency that you work for, right, they're not highly personal branded but they are an agency. So there's different business models but in terms of let's say someone who's, let's say a freelancer, a copywriter or something and they want to build a personal brand for themselves to kind of get their word out there, get themselves known, and maybe gain more traffic to their services.

From your experience, and let's go through the platform one by one, what platforms, would you say, for them to hop on to kind of build a recognition for themselves? And in terms of podcasting, would you suggest them to start a podcast to kind of get their business off the ground? Would you-- or what mediums would you say, what do you think is important for them to have to get themselves started promoting their services to a wider variety of people?

Joey:

Yeah. I would think, again, this varies from person to person but--

Omar:

It's a vague question.

Joey:

Yes. From a blanket standpoint, definitely get on one of the social networks, I think. And again, this is my personal experience. I think Twitter and Facebook groups have been where I found the most business. LinkedIn, I've made a lot of connections with people. Occasionally, that has led to some sort of freelance writing or helping with digital marketing. What I've seen more so on LinkedIn lately, is just a lot of, you know, self-advertising without getting to know someone. Like, you can't force it. 

I remember a friend told me, this was like way back in the day when Twitter was still pretty new. He was like, you know those brands that just like immediately tag you or message you and are like pitching their sales right away? He's like, you wouldn't go up to someone on the street and start yelling at them like, hey buy my product. Check this out. You get to know them and say, oh, like, you know, down the line, hey your needs are what my product solves. Like, we should talk let's--

Omar:

No funnel.

Joey:

And some people—yeah, some people—yeah, no funnel at all. They’re just like from my mouth to your ears. [Inaudible 37:22]. And that's what I've been seeing a lot more of LinkedIn. I'll have people connecting with me where it's like not even remotely in like the same realm of like, I'm their target audience anyway and they're just like, hey you know, I saw your network. Thought you'd be a great person to know, like, here's what I do. And I'm like nah, I'm the wrong person to be targeting for this. Like, clearly just like you’re doing like a shotgun type of approach with that. So definitely avoid that, I would say.

Twitter is, I very much have a love-hate relationship with Twitter.

Omar:

Yeah. Twitter is interesting because I've never heard a digital marketer mentioned Twitter, especially in this day and age. So what about Twitter exactly?

Joey:

Well with Twitter, there's a couple of things. One, it's, I think it's still the easiest platform to tag people on. So it's like hey, Omar wrote this great piece. I can easily tag him on it then he'll engage, share it with his audience as well. It's also from a finding people perspective, I think, still the easiest platform to do because you can search. 

Twitter's search is pretty solid for a social platform especially. You can tailor it of like, hey I know that I want to do copywriting in, let's say like the health care space, and then you can tailor that down. You can search people that have that in their bio. You can search for their job titles that might be in their bio. Other, you know, other hashtags that are commonly used in that area and find people that are looking for work.

A lot of times, you know, an editor or a marketing manager will say, hey accepting pitches or looking to hire people and you can even search those terms specifically plus whatever niche you're in. I wouldn't just search for, you know, hiring now or like looking, looking to hire because you're going to get a huge variety of things that you then have to Swift or wade through. But when you have that sort of targeted search to it, I've certainly found people-- and again, you're not immediately saying--

Omar:

Try to build a connection.

Joey:

Yeah. Like, you know, pay me money. Like, that's not your first line of connection. But reaching out or maybe, you know, you saw something they did on a website, reaching out to them, hey I saw this post. I thought it was really helpful. You can even just share the post and tag them and then they see your name, like some of their content. And then when you do message them, they've seen your name and they're familiar with and they're like, oh yeah, that person. Like, they like my stuff, like I'll give them the time of day.

And sometimes, you'll reach out to someone, you'll see the little checkmark that says seen and they don't respond back, and that's totally fine. I would love to meet [inaudible 40:07] 100 percent back on, you know, on their messages even after building that relationship. But more often than not, they're at least going to chat with you, especially if you, you know, have a targeted thing instead of just saying like, I'd love to pick your brain, which I think kind of draws people away a little bit because--

Omar:

Because you're sucking value from them, you know. You're not providing anything. You’re still wanting something from somebody and it just comes off from a needy way. That, even though in your head, it might sound flattering, hey like I'm giving my time to like come understand this person. It might sound flattering from your end but it's not because, really, you're just sucking value from the other guy. You know, they have to waste their time, their part of their day to like tell you something to help you out and they don't get anything in return.

Joey:

Yeah. I can't remember who it was, if it was like Mark Cuban or someone in that align of like picking your brain or taking someone out for coffee. He's like, these are the worst things because it shows you don't know what you want out of the meeting, and he was like, I would much rather someone just message me. I'm going to attribute this to Mark Cuban and then everyone will go message him and it won't be. But he said, you know, like if you have a line, like or a question, I'd much rather just ask me that directly because then I can either give you an answer or like point you to a resource that will help. And I know that like you, you know, you know what you're trying to get out of the conversation. Like, don't send a list of 20 questions--

Omar:

Be direct. Yeah.

Joey:

Yeah. Besides of like, hey let’s shoot the ball for a little bit.

Omar:

But when I say be direct, don't just be like, Hey Mark Cuban, come on my podcast. Be something like, look I created you four pieces of content. I think it'll go perfect with your strategy. I see like there's something missing between point A and point B for you in the funnel, here's four pieces of content that you can start right away to come help you out. Now with that being said, I would love for you to be on my podcast. I've had guests, A, B and C, you know them already. I think you're a great fit for my podcast. Would you mind coming on? Boom. That's a great outline right there. Give value. Go for your ask and do it in a way where it's respectful of their time. And as a person. 

Joey:

Absolutely. Perfect.

Omar:

Yeah. You mentioned Twitter, right? When you mentioned Twitter, just something clicked in my head there just now and you just made it like helpful for me there. So, I'm starting to realize all these social media platforms, they're just forms of different ways that you can do outreach in a more targeted way. And that's probably their biggest use, in my opinion. I used to think that, Oh, it's platform-specific whenever you're building a personal brand, right? 

But as anyone, and this is something I'm going to say right now, for any one of my listeners, if you're just starting out, don't focus on branding. Focus on getting business, and the best way that you can get business is through outreach. And if you look at my Instagram, it's just full of posts like go outreach, outreach, outreach, outreach. You're going to get rejected, this is going to happen. But if you DM 100 people, if you Tweet 100 people, you will get business and you will get off the ground. But you've got to know what you want. 

But I realized, in all these social media platforms are just different types of mediums, we can do the same thing, right? With LinkedIn, for example, you can build an optimized SEO profile and have people search you out for what you want. Or you can reach out to other people on LinkedIn, come in a way where you A, give value, B, go for the ask directly and C, in a way that's respectful and a win-win for both of you. Right. 

Same thing applies to Twitter. Your strategy can be liking a few of their tweets, retweeting some of their tweets. Maybe tagging them in a tweet then going in for the value ask. It can be on Instagram. A strategy that I heard the other day on Clubhouse, actually, was the 3-2-1 strategy, and I've already shared this with somebody else. But what it is, is you go in 3, likes on posts, 2, comment value giving comments and then 1, response to a story because everyone checks their responses to stories. Boom. Go in value, ask. 

It can be applied to any platform and it's not really platform-dependent anymore, it's just about where you can get traffic. Now on the flip side, where platforms do matter, is if you're trying to build your own brand, right? So if you're trying to get more people to come to you, what you do want, everyone wants that eventually down the road, but you got to start off as a Jester before you can become a King. I think that's a good quote to put it. 

So, you've always got to do the outreach and stuff first. You've always got to build that personal brand first. You got to grind a bit, put in some hard work, engage with every single person that you can before you have people coming to you. So yes, I think it's a good thing to start the outreach first. 

And a lot of my listeners right now probably just curious about the digital nomad remote working space. So if you want to work digitally, you got to do all the outreach first to kind of get some business. Figure out what you actually want to do and get business in that. But simultaneously, at the same time, start building a personal brand, and that's very platform-dependent. 

So, and your like—and we're going to bounce back on what you said about Instagram here in a minute. But in my personal opinion, and I hope you have a rebuttal to this, in my personal opinion right now, Instagram, Tiktok, LinkedIn and Clubhouse are the four platforms that you should be-- and Pinterest but I don't know how to use Pinterest. Those five platforms are probably the ones that you want to go all in on and focus your energies on posting content. And Facebook too, actually. There's something about Facebook, so six.

Well, you know what? Like, I could even say Twitter because you gave me an example on Twitter. So, you want to go on social media and try to build a brand for yourself just in a way that's the easiest to do, right? So, if I had to pick one from those to build a brand in the most organic way possible right now, I would say Tiktok, simply because of how much traffic you can get in a very easy way. 

But on your sense, like if you're just trying to build a personal brand in a way where people are coming to you and asking you for your services rather than you having to do the cold outreach that us, people like us and marketing agencies do every single day, what would you say is the best platforms to do that on?

Joey:

I would say, again, a little bit of a mix. LinkedIn, I think, does have the most inbound. Again, you're going to get some people that are just shooting out messages to maybe you have like one word in your profile that--

Omar:

Before you move on to the next platform, so we'll go platform by platform here. With LinkedIn, what are some strategies that people could do that that helps their profile be more seen?

Joey:

Use your headline, which is, you have your name and your title and then you have that little headline underneath that is 140 characters, 160 characters. Use that to say something. There’s so often I've seen someone that is like, you know, I help by creatives embrace their inner creative self. Or you know, something like very, very ethereal that doesn't really tell me what they do. If I can't figure that out, I'm probably not going to pursue it. And you can also use that as an SEO keyword thing because that's going to pop up when people are searching for it. 

So, you know, say if you're a copywriter, say I do copywriting for XYZ types of client and people that are looking for that kind of work when they search that, your name is more likely to pop up when you're hire. Similarly, with LinkedIn, you can do the 3-2-1 method. LinkedIn, remember when LinkedIn introduced stories last year? It’s like, what are you doing? This is not what I want here. So, maybe I'd stick it more to just liking or commenting on LinkedIn.

But that's happened sometimes, too. I've commented on a connection and someone is like, hey, you know, I saw your comment. I liked what you had to say. I'm connected with this person too, which is why they saw the comment, and I think we could work together. Like, we have some overlap that makes sense. And I'm always on board for that because they took the time to read what I had to say. They presumably looked at my profile as well and we're like, oh okay, like I see where there could be some value here and it wasn't just a straight up, you know, an in-male that just, I happen to be in their age range and a male and that’s like who they’re trying to reach out to.

So, I think from an inbound perspective, LinkedIn is still certainly a bunch. And then Instagram too, it depends on the type of work that you do. If you are more interested in like consumer brands or, you know, photography or coaching, I think that’s, Instagram is a great platform for that.

I don’t disagree with you about Tiktok. But as we were saying beforehand, I’m just not on Tiktok so I don’t, I would be a falsely speaking to it if I offered any branding tips. But I agree, I think there's so many people on there. And if you’re, even if you're not comfortable creating video content. Like, being able to create video content, all of these platforms are going towards a video and audio sort of route. So--

Omar:

Right.

Joey:

--get comfortable doing it now and you'll be ahead of the game.

Omar:

It’s interesting because when it comes to video and—so like with audio, you can still build a pretty solid brand without even ever having to show your face or make any video content. Because I’ve seen a lot of people on these video platforms do things like put b-roll on their voice and just make, and get this b-roll from like any sort of free royalty website and just kind of put it together in a way that kind of appeals to the audience and draws emotions from it. So there's so much b-roll out there already that like [inaudible 49:39] personal brand completely by never even showing your face or talking—or never showing your face. You would have to either talk or show your face but you have to do one of those two things, right?

How can you squeeze out the most organic reach from Instagram?

Joey:

Your 3-2-1 method, I’ve heard it in various number of, you know, five likes and one follow or whatever. But I think, yeah, you need to-- you don't need to be posting every day. Certainly not. I've seen people posting several times a day, which it doesn't hurt, but it's not like a you need to do this or else you're going to fail on Instagram.

And certainly, make sure again that your posts are providing value, are helping accomplish what you want to do, don't just-- I did, this was like five years ago now, I did a post a picture a day challenge just for the heck of it and there were some days it was like 11:50 at night, I hadn't posted anything. And I'm like, this little like dust ball over here is, you know, making a cool reflection against the wall, I'll do that. And it predictably tanked because it's like, what the hell is this? I was just like, well I was struggling and it was almost midnight, I had to post something for the day. So you don't have to post just to post, unless you're doing a ridiculous photo challenge like that. 

But interacting with other people is, I wouldn't say has always been Instagram’s bread and butter, but it certainly is now. So, I would say if you are on Instagram and you want the widest organic reach, you don't want to pay any money on ads or anything like that, reels and stories are going to be your top two areas to focus on. The reels, of course you can also post to your timeline. 

But remember, I always forget this, in the timeline, it’s going to be a square, not the full vertical reels that you have. So if you're putting text in your reels, that might not show up in your post. You might have to cut off--

Omar:

All square. Right.

Joey:

So if you want that to be seen, you can certainly do that. I've also heard someone say that they intentionally will put half the text on the screen. So you see like the top portion of it, and then you're, you know, want to click through to read the rest of it.

Omar:

To read it. Interesting.

Joey:

So that can also be another tactic. Either be strategic about where your text is, or just make sure, which I guess you're still being strategic if you're making sure people can see it, so be strategic with your text and reels.

But to your point about responding to stories, I think that's a phenomenal thing. Like, a lot of times, I might miss a comment, you know, if a lot of people are commenting. You know, I'm so popular. I'm getting just thousands of comments on every post, so it's impossible to reply to all of them. But if you take the time to respond to a story or even just like share someone's post to your story and be like, hey check out this cool thing. This person's doing-- I would say at least 98 percent of the time, I'm probably, I was about to say 100 but there's probably been one or two times where someone hasn't, but they'll respond back of like, thanks so much for sharing, you know, have you seen success with this? 

And sometimes, they're picking your brain then even just from sharing it. It’s like, hey I'm glad you saw this. Like, have you found success promoting on Instagram? And you're like, I'm doing it right now. I’m like, you're engaged with what I'm having to say here. And so, I think that's an easy way to do it. You don't have to spend an hour or two every day on Instagram, you can just spend a few minutes here or there.

Omar:

It's weird. Like, one of the strangest things about social media, in my opinion, like It's, all of social media, Instagram definitely, they're all so engagement-based, right? And there comes a point where, how do you scale all of that? You know, you can hire VAs to do things but then you're always sacrificing on the authenticity. You can use bots, but then that also, like you’re putting comments that are emojis, right? That doesn't work either. And it's Blackhat--

Joey:

--or like, this is cool and it's like a post about their grandma died.

Omar:

Exactly. Yeah, you don't want that, right? So it's always about scalability. And really, I think, I personally believe is that you automate every other part of your business that you possibly can when you're scaling, but you are the one that's engaging. You even automate and outsource the content creation from other pieces of content that you already created. So something like, what we specialize in is we do a full audio hour of the video podcast and I just put that out there and then my VAs create all the content for me and schedule the posts, but I do all of the engaging. You know?

We're coming up with these systems now where we have VAs in the inbox of Instagram answering the DMS that people put through for bigger clients that have like a lot more followers that they can’t answer themselves. And then, the VAs will kind of sift through the people that’ll have something of value, something to offer. Maybe a meeting, maybe just a good connection to have, and then they'll pass it on to the main owner of the account and then they’ll engage with it. But it's still another human soul behind what's going on, right?

And I think it's just about authenticity at the end of the day. As a business owner, I think it should be the person that owns the business, or the face behind, the voice behind the account that's doing the engaging and that's what really, it's weird to say, but that's really what takes up most of your time. You know, when it comes to growing a personal brand or when it comes to growing your business, engagement with other human beings. Network building because-- and the old adage stays true- your network is your net worth, right? And then plus social media.

Joey:

Network to get work. 

Omar:

Exactly. That's what it is. Moving on from Instagram then. So you said you're dabbling a little bit with Pinterest, right? How much have you figured out about that so far?

Joey:

Certainly not enough to consider myself an expert. But again, like with the cross promotion of social platforms and being all over the place, you can link to your Instagram on Pinterest and share that visually captivating content, which Pinterest also is a very visual platform. And then people click into it, they go right to your Instagram and they're able to see, oh wait, this person has a lot of good stuff. I'll follow that there as well.

I've tried Pinterest ads a little bit. I'm still kind of meh on them. I think they can get your stuff in front of a lot of people but I didn't really see a lot of click throughs or anything like that. But again, it's, you know, it's very minimal experience with that, so I probably just have more to learn on that but--

Omar:

Okay. But there is viability there.

Joey:

Yes. But I think, where I've seen the most success with Pinterest boards is, or with Pinterest, is in interacting with other people's boards. And some will have kind of like an open source of like, hey you can drop in a link to add to this board that you think is a good thing. Drop a pin, I should say. And you can build that rapport that way following other accounts, interacting, sharing, pinning stuff from their boards to your boards is a great way. 

You have a few things that you want to be promoting on your board of like, you know, Kickass Digital Marketers, and then you're pinning content from that. And they see, oh my stuff's on Kickass Digital Marketers. I want to see that. And then they'll see your content on there too. And be more--

Omar:

Just kind of way to draw people in.

Joey:

--check it out. Mm-hmm.

Omar:

Interesting. All right. Yeah, I’ll definitely--

Joey:

[Inaudible 57:15] the stories in that sense of like taking something that they're posting and--

Omar:

Re-pinning.

Joey:

--giving it a shout out to your audience. Yeah.

Omar:

It makes sense. It's interesting. It's such a platform that's so new to I think a lot of guys in general, because it’s much more like girl-centric, that platform. There's so many, I know a lot of girls that are on there but not any guys, really. And it's funny that--

Joey:

[Inaudible 47:41] it was just like planning weddings, right?

Omar:

Yeah.

Joey:

It’s just like you'd go there for wedding and home decor inspiration.

Omar:

Exactly. And now it's evolving into this platform that's a really solid digital marketing medium, right? And of course, marketers’ going to be the first one to try to utilize it and make something from it. So yeah, it's something that I definitely want to check out too.

If anyone in my audience is listening to this and has any experience with Pinterest, feel free to shoot me an email and let's see what we can do because I'd love to learn. 

Joey:

CC me, please. Yeah.

Omar:

Well, CC Joey here. I'll throw both of our emails here in the in the show notes. So yeah. Cool. So that's a quick little rundown for social media platforms, which I think is really interesting. A lot of people can use that because everyone who's listening to this podcast is really just trying to get into the online space at the end of the day, right?

And so yeah, good little pieces there. I wanted to, before we try to close the podcast off here, I wanted to circle back to one thing about Clubhouse. So, and something that's really, really interesting about Clubhouse is you know this engagement that we're talking about and trying to scale that. You're still engaging with one on one on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook. On Facebook groups, I think, is engagement-scaled personally, if you're a group admin. But all these other platforms are one on one engagement pieces. 

But with the Clubhouse, it's the most personalized engagement form at the biggest scale. Because in Clubhouse, you can have these rooms with 500, 1000 people that are listening to you talk on the stage giving value. And 500 to 1000 people, you're getting investment from them, they're seeing-- so there's social proof, you're up there on the stage and you're having a conversation. And I'll see like the people on the stage sometimes invite somebody onto the stage with them and they'll sell them like $1,000 course right then and there. I've seen that happen. 

I've seen the person on the stage, like I've been on the stage a couple times and I've created my own rooms a couple times already. And the moment that you're talking and just engaging with everybody in the room, whether they’re audience members or aren't even talking and they're just listening, or they're people that are up there talking there talking with you, as long as you're saying something of value, you get an influx of followers on Instagram, on Twitter and all your other social media platforms that you’ve linked in. Just with people trying to network with you and connect with you.

So, it's literally from what I've seen, engagement at scale and I think that's my favorite thing about Clubhouse. With Tiktok, yeah, you can get all this traffic, right. You can get a ton of organic traffic. You have like, you can get like-- I've seen people get 100,000 followers in a matter of two months, right, on Tiktok. But how much of that traffic is actually converting? Unless you're really, really engaging with all that traffic, you know, there's a lot of good ways to engage on Tiktok but it's never as personal. And a lot of that traffic is just traffic that's just scrolling through and manages to find your account, give you a follow because they like what you posted at that time, and then keep scrolling.

With Clubhouse, it's so engaged, that if I started a room and I managed to scale that to 500 people in my room and just talking and stuff in there listening, then at a later time, if I make another room, those same pretty close to that 500 people would try to join the room again. You know? It's really, really interesting in that sense. So it's, I think it's engagement at scale and that's why I see a lot of potential in Clubhouse and that's my two words on Clubhouse there.

Joey:

Yeah. It's giving you a stage and an audience without you having to reach out to 500 people.

Omar:

Exactly. It's like convention style, right? Like whenever, how many times have you been to a convention of some kind and the person on the stage, some sort of marketer or something, goes for a close or an ask at the end of that seminar, right? Whether it's a course or--

Joey:

100 percent of the time, yeah.

Omar:

Exactly. Always do it because that's what they get from their speaking engagements. There's like the one percent of speakers. Like for example, Gary Vee, from what I've seen, doesn't really do that. And if they ask, he’s just like, hey go follow me on Instagram or something. So just a little really top of funnel. But a lot of them will go straight for the ask and you'll see conversion rates of like 30 to 40 percent at the end of that, that stage, the ask, right? 

So I've seen the same like maybe not as high conversion rates because you're not seeing their faces and stuff, but Clubhouse is getting those pretty high conversion rates. Like, I would say 20 to 25 percent at least of them are converting for your ask, whether it's a course or social media platform or go follow me here and stuff. So yeah, there's a lot of potential in that app and I haven't been that excited about a medium for a year or two. Tiktok’s never even made me excited the way Clubhouse did. So, check it out.

Now, with some final closing words here, Joey, this is something that I like to close off all my episodes with. If you had a stage, going back to stages here, but your stage is a billboard on the, in space and everyone on earth can see it, right, if you had to take, to put one piece of advice on that billboard, what would it be?

Joey:

I like this question. I heard it in your most recent episode and I was like, what would mine be? I still don't know if I have a great answer but honestly, I think based on the state of the country lately, how about like, let's just be nice to each other. It's real basic but, man, do we need a reminder right now. So, that's my one piece of advice. I'll probably regret it in a couple of months when people are still not nice to each other but that's it, and then maybe a link to my website.

Omar:

Where can people find you, by the way, Joey?

Joey:

All over the place. Hit me up on Twitter, @josephcurrency, LinkedIn, Joey Held. I believe I'm the only Joey Held out there, unless someone rogue has started in the last month or so. But I, and then you can check out my website, goodpeoplecoolthings.com or-- we didn't even touch on this, but for my NBA fans out there listening, crispbouncepass.com. I have a newsletter about the lighter side of basketball, and it is just, it's so much fun to write. I mean, I'm a huge basketball fan, but I'm way more interested in the fun stories on and off the court than recapping the latest box score or how many points Steph Curry had, which it’s great to nerd out about but like--

Omar:

So like, lives of the basketball players. 

Joey:

Yeah. So the most recent episode was cameos, NBA cameos on the show Curb Your Enthusiasm, which is another series I like to do of just NBA athletes acting because some are pretty good. Muggsy Bogues, pretty solid. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, obviously great in airplane. But then we'll see, you know, we'll see some that are just barely scraping by. They can barely remember their lines and there's no acting at all, it’s just going back to the lines.

Omar:

It's funny how many like professional sports players try to like diffuse themselves into other mediums like acting. Sometimes, it pings but most of the time, it doesn’t. Hey, Space Jam was--

Joey:

Yeah, sometimes you're pleasantly surprised. But yeah, Space Jam 2, maybe we'll get it this year, finally.

Omar:

Yeah.  Hopefully.

Joey:

I’ve been waiting about it for a decade.

Omar:

That would be amazing. I've been waiting for that movie for ages.

Joey:

Exactly.

Omar:

I'll put all those links in the show notes. So, great. It was a pleasure having you on today, Joey.

Joey:

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. We'll get some more coffee.

Omar:

Absolutely. All right.

Outro-

You made it to the end of the episode, Nomad fam. Remember to leave a rating or review. Your feedback helps take this podcast to the next level. It's funny how things are sometimes. Your review could start a butterfly effect and literally end up changing someone else's life for the better. So keep that in mind. 

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One final thing. If you made it this far, I want you to shoot me an email at omarmodigital@gmail.com. I would love to sit down and connect with you with a one on one. I want to know who you are, what you do, your story. Everything about you. Because if you've made it this far, you've probably been listening for a while. So yeah, shoot me an email. Anyways, thanks for listening. Speak soon.

Thanks for tuning in to the Nomadic Executive. If you enjoyed this episode, take a moment to leave a rating or review. Your feedback helps us reach others who need a spark of inspiration. See you next time.



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