The Nomadic Executive with Omar Mo - 
Hosted by Omar Mo

Spiritual Entrepreneurship and Building a Business That Leaves an Impact With Jay Holland | TNE048


Ever heard of the term, spiritual entrepreneur? It could mean a ton of different things when you really think about it.

Perhaps you thought of some meditating, holistic teacher in Bali selling courses on how to make green smoothies.

Perhaps you thought of some psychedelic taking business machine who makes deals like they’re in fear and loathing in las Vegas.

     After speaking with one man however, the true meaning of what a spiritual entrepreneur is became readily apparent to me. It’s someone who's out there chasing impact rather than monetary gain. For anyone who's been in business long enough, this next line will ring true. When you create enough value, impact enough people, the money will come.

     For Jay, this was always about impact and the journey of spiritual change. We’re joined by Jay Holland, a Christian Pastor in Florida and host of “lets parent on purpose”, one of the top christian parenting podcasts in the world. Jay and I dive into his story, growing his podcast, expanding his impact, and the journey of boy to man. If you’ve ever thought about creating a business that leaves a lasting impact or want your current business to impact more people, this episode is a must listen.

Today's Guest

Jay Holland

Jay Holland has been a Student Pastor for the past 20 years and a biological, adoptive, and foster parent for more than 18 years now.

He runs a podcast and community called "Let's Parent on Purpose" that helps with parenting, marriage, and spirituality from a Christian lens.

Show Notes

13:30 How are podcasts different than other media forms?

15:10 Podcast is a library that people can easily access any time.

26:13 How a good podcast title will garner more listeners

33:26 Prioritizing value of podcasts to listeners over downloads.

44.25 3 Things that people with contentment in their lives have:: Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose.

47:02 5 different areas of Jay's Life Goals: Spiritually, Family, Professionally, Financially, and Physically.


Spiritual Entrepreneurship and Building a Business That Leaves an Impact With Jay Holland | TNE048 TRANSCRIPT

Host: Omar Mo

Guest: Jay Holland


Ever heard of the term spiritual entrepreneur? It could mean a ton of different things. When you really think about it. Perhaps, you thought of some meditating, holistic teacher in Bali selling courses of how to make green smoothies, perhaps you thought of some psychedelic-taking business machine who makes deals like they're in fear and loathing of Las Vegas.

After speaking with one man, however, the true meaning of what a spiritual entrepreneur is became readily apparent to me. It's someone who's out there chasing impact rather than monetary gain. And for anyone who's been in business long enough, this next mine will ring true. When you create enough value, impact enough people, the money will come.

For Jay, this was always about impact and the journey of spiritual change. We're joined by Jay Holland, a Christian pastor in Florida, and the host of Let’s Parent On Purpose, one of the top Christian parenting podcasts in the world. Jay and I dive into a story growing his podcast, expanding his impact and the journey of boy to man.

If you've ever thought about creating a business that leaves a lasting impact or want your current business to impact more people, this episode is a must listen. Now, before we get started here, I'd like to give a shout out to a review we recently got. Workingmanblues763 says "Omar has taken a great idea that might even be more powerful now in the wake of COVID. If you've got any interest in starting or growing a business, definitely take a listen to this podcast."

Thanks for the kind words, workingmanblues. And to you, my nomad fam, I'd like to remind you to please leave a rating or a review. Every review helps this podcast become more visible to people who just may need that spark of inspiration to take the first leap.

And of course, I'll be sure to give you a shout out on a future episode. Now without further ado, here we go.

My name is Omar Mo, and this is the Nomadic Executive. You're listening to their nomadic executive hosted by Omar from Join Omar as he sits down and speaks with leading online entrepreneurs, remote workers and digital nomads about everything from business strategy to travel and lifestyle design. Together, we're here to help you achieve a life of happiness, health, and freedom.

And now here's your host, Omar Mo.



All right, Jay. Welcome to the nomadic executive. Thank you for so much for coming on today.



Yeah, it's a pleasure to get to meet you and get to spend this time with you.



Absolutely. Why don't we dive into your story a bit here? I'm really curious to see what kind of person you are and why you do what you do and how you got into it.

So let's start off. I mean, you said how old were you again?



I'm 43. So I know I don't look a day over 41.



Right. So 43 years old. And you're now a pastor at a church in Southern Florida.



Yeah. So I, and I've, I just jumped back. I grew up in West Virginia was born and raised just outside of Huntington, West, Virginia. It's where Marshall University is, if anybody knows where Marshall University is. I was the youngest of five.

My parents were married. Both were previously married. And then I was the only child of that marriage. So I had four siblings that were in and out of the house. Half one brother and three sisters that would split the time between with my mom and dad and with their mom . Happy normal childhood, lived in a neighborhood, played with kids.

You know, church was always a real central part of our life. And our faith was very central. My faith in Jesus has always been, I've just never not known that to be a reality in my life, but certainly had to go through the time of owning it to myself and making it, you know, not just something I believe, cause mom and dad believe it.

But grew up, grew up you know, living in the same house for 18 years had, actually my, and I was a go getter, I guess I would say through school. I knew starting in ninth grade that I want to go to the Air Force Academy, the United States Air Force Academy. So I started doing all of the little boxes you have to check, you know, academically and athletically and in clubs and stuff like that.

And I was blessed to get an appointment to go to the Air Force Academy. So I graduated high school, went through basic training in the air force. And was it, it's the officer military school for air force officers. I did, I did my freshman and sophomore year there. And I loved it, but one of the major changing points in my life was the beginning, even though I had been a Christian and I've kind of passively followed Jesus growing up, I didn't start actually reading the Bible until freshman year of college. And that made a pretty powerful transition in my life. So like just committing to reading the Bible. So after about two years of doing that, I just found that like my desires had really changed. And even though I loved the military school and would be finding that, I knew that wasn't my purpose in life.

And so I left there, I went to a Bible college for the next two years, graduated. And then 13 days after graduation, married my high school sweetheart who we dated all the way through school.  Got my first pastoring job in West Virginia, actually at the church that I grew up in. I, we were there six years and we had a real heart for world missions.

And so we actually traveled quite a bit to India and helped take medical. My wife and I, Christie. She was a nurse and I was a pastor and we would help take medical missions teams to North India to help work with this ministry that was taking care of orphans. We really wanted to go there.

Had a little girl and then my wife got sick and so we spent a couple of years battling an autoimmune disease. She ended up dying of complications of that when she was 28, we were both 28 years old. So my little girl was three. I moved to Nashville for about a year and a half. Met a girl from South Florida who was the sister of one of my very good friends, ended up remarrying and ultimately through the housing market crash.

It's kind of wild. How like your greatest financial failures sometimes will put you right in the place that you need to be. The housing market crash of 2008, 2009 forced us to move from Nashville where I loved, to South Florida, where I hated. And I was, you know, I missed Hills and seasons and, and it not being horrendously hot all the time.

But we've been here now 13 years, I think. And I don't know when we'll ever leave. So we've got four kids . My wife adopted my oldest daughter, Brooklyn. Then we had two boys of our own, and then we got into fostering. So we fostered for a few years. I think we had eight children in our home. Some for, you know, over a year or two, some for just, you know, a few, few months. And then ultimately adopted a little special needs girl out of foster care. And so



What was your intention behind fostering a child?

What was I guess the drive for that?



Yeah. I, depending on the moment you ask me, I would say lunacy, just maybe a wasn't thinking right. But now it's hard. I'll just tell you you don't get into fostering because you want to feel good about yourself. Because something in the system or process will reveal what a horrible human being you are.

Cause it's a broken, messed up system, but you know, there's these kids that through no fault of their own or just in terrible circumstances and their world has been turned upside down and every kid deserves to have a good mom and dad and just sadly some don't some have you know, whether it's through drugs or alcohol, which is typically the case or abuse. Just find themselves in places that they can't be. So in our case, we were the fifth family for this little girl by her first birthday. And there was a lot of drug use in the womb while she was in there. And so we, you know, we've had her for eight years I think, but we're still fighting through those demons from, you know, that first year of life in the womb. So I think you know, our faith definitely enforms that, and, and we feel like God's heart is near the orphan and near the widow and he's given us the means and capacity and family stability to be able to get involved. And so you know, something's going to be the hardest thing that you ever do in your life.

And so why not make it something worthwhile? I think maybe it would be a good way to say it.



Makes sense. I mean, the challenges that you overcome, especially in the name of good eventually build you up as a better person.





People around you as well. So I totally understand that. So now you've had your, or you've had your four kids and you live with your wife in Fort La. Is it Fort Lauderdale?



No, we're in Stewart. It's actually a little town, it's. We're North of West Palm beach. So like, if you were coming to visit us, you would, you fly into Fort Lauderdale, West Palm beach and then go North for half an hour to an hour,



I was actually in Stewart. That's where I was.



Oh really? Were you?



Really nice place. It has this like a Latin charm to it. I can't put my finger on it, but I really loved the little dock area and the string lights all the way that.



Oh yeah. Yeah. It's paradise. Like I, it's nothing like it, you know, you go to South Florida, so overgrown city-wise and we're here in this little small town that's on the water and perfect.



It's charming. Cool. Yeah. So you've been in Stuart now for what? 13 years?



Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Our boy's 12 and he told me and a half years we got down here about six months before he was born.



Great. Where in that journey, in Stewart, did you decide to start your own blog and podcast?



Okay. Good question. So I have been involved in some kind of student pastoring for about 20 years. And when I was young, you know, when I was in my twenties, it felt like the ministry very much was to the kids. You know, because you just, you're kind of like a big brother to them. And so you relate to them, you're real close to their age and everything.

And then I noticed as time goes on, a couple of things. One is, like as the number of kids in our church grows, my ability to be involved in any one life is minimized. You know, it's kind of like with any business or anything else you do, the bigger it grows, the less personal involvement that you have with any one of them.

And also just, I remember reading the statistic that like the average church, I remember reading this statistic that like the average church gets a student for about a hundred hours a year, 50 to a hundred hours a year. But a parent is around their child for about 3000 hours a year. And so, you know, and I have kids of my own and I realized, man, there is no greater impact than a mom and dad on a kid.

And so trying to wrestle through what can I do? I'm in this role where I've not only got these students, but their parents are around and I can't have classes with the parents because I'm with their kids during those class times. And so I just started experimenting. I found out, you know, I bought a website called

And for a year I started a blog and a podcast cause I'm real big into listening to podcasts. And I mean, if anybody's listening to this podcast, like, you know, if, like, people listen to this podcast because they really get into conversations and you learn. And so I thought, you know, not just, I want, there's a lot of blogs out there, felt like there wasn't a ton in parenting.

And so I thought if I can get in their ear for, you know, 20 to 40 minutes a week, that's better than being in a class. Like I've got them during that time.



You give much more of an impact.



Yeah, absolutely. And so I watched, and this would be for those who are in your entrepreneurial spheres, this was really interesting. So I did the blog and I did the podcast and I really did it with zero budget money whatsoever.

I had a mailing list of about 150 parents. So I would send out my mailing list and I would post on my Facebook page.



That was right from your church?



Yeah. Yeah, yeah. These are ones that I was dealing with. So, and honestly, of the 150 50% of those open their emails. So anyway, that was my starter group.

So for the first year, here's what I noticed when I would post a blog, there was about a 24 hour shelf life with that blog. When I would do a podcast, it would grow like there would be a spike when I did it, but as I kept watching the data over months, every episode would slowly grow and grow. And so, and it's like, Oh, well, I totally get that.

Because if I find somebody who's an author who I like as a blog and I find something they like, I don't then go back and devour everything that they've ever written as a blog. I just wait for the next one to come out. But if I find a podcast I really like, you know, if I got long drives, I'll just listen over and over and over again.

And so that's what was happening with the pointing podcast is I, I learned that this is a library that is not dated and people are, you know, if they find one, they found them all. And if they like one, they get real interested. And I have people today who will email me and say, "Hey, found your podcast. My wife and I are going back and listening from the beginning on our drives home from work. And then over dinner, we talk about what it is." And so I started this podcast to focus on marriage, parenting, and then personal discipleship.

And so the whole process since then has been about how do I get better at it? How do I bring more value to the table? And in my case, I don't need to make a ton of money from this right now. So



For you, it's more about impact.



Yeah. It's like, how do I make this where it doesn't cost me or the church money for me to do? And so I, you know, I went the Patreon route and I've got enough Patreon supporters to cover the web fees and the hosting and you know, an assistant from the Philippines that helps write my show notes each week.

So, you know, I started doing everything and then I would think, okay, what are the things that I hate about this? It's like, well, I love interviewing people...



Before we continue on there. I had a couple of questions, right?

So, I mean, you've got to, I think over 200 episodes now and you've got the blog going on as well, two questions come from that.

When you found the impact that your podcasts kept giving to people and how they kept going back and listening to your old podcast episodes, did you continue the blog up after that?



Oh, good question. No, so I committed to doing both for a year



Cut off the blog?



And then, and then I switched because what I was doing is I was writing a blog that went with the podcast. And after that, basically my blog became a summary of, this is what I talked about in the podcast. And honestly, I'm about ready to make another change as well.

So I'm four years into it. And right now, my show notes are pretty extensive. There's about 500 words per show notes. And I, and I just don't think they're being used enough to warrant the time. I'm still getting plenty of feedback on my podcast. I have a mailing list that, that has grown to about a thousand people.

But the show notes, you know, they're really to drive SEO. For two things for me, I, you know, hopefully keywords to drive SEO. And then also if a guest mentions a resource or something like that, I want the links in there so that when somebody is listening to the podcast, they don't have to stop and write it down.

And so I want a place to just say, "Hey, you can, you know, don't have to write this down right now, go to the show notes. I'll have all of these links." But I think I can skim about 75% of the time and labor involved, and I'm not going to see any significant difference in effective output of the show notes. So, I'm still in a learning process with all of this, but I quit the blog altogether and.



Have you tried flipping it the other way, where instead of doing show notes you do transcriptions? Because I've found with transcriptions, the SEO ranking is much more significant than with something like show notes.



Yeah. I think you're probably right, because you're going to get every single word of the podcast. I have not simply because of the financial, like if, you know, if I wanted to raise money for somebody to cover the transcriptions, it might be worth doing.



Well, how much are you paying for show notes if you don't mind me asking?



I have a lady who does it for and she doesn't just do show notes, but she's $11 an hour. She's from the Philippines. She has impeccable English. So there's, you know, and I, and I went through a few to get to that.

And, and now there's no difference in, like, you're not gonna know the difference in her writing the show notes and me writing the show notes, except that my writing style is different, but not for English. So she's $11 an hour. She listens to the podcast, she writes the show notes. She uploads it on the WordPress site.

She makes a social media graphic that goes along with it where she pulls out a quote from the person and she, you know, puts their picture with it. She emails my guest, you know, the links and quote, and then she post it on Instagram each week. And so I think she does about four, about four hours a week of work to have that done.

And I, and I think I can knock it down to three by not having her write a 500-word summary.



Yeah, you could probably make it shorter than that and maybe just focus on more significant keywords. And the only reason that I ask is because I run my own podcasting agency that helps other businesses set up their own podcasts and create graphics from them and content from them.

So I'm just curious about other people's experiences with that. The other question that I had is actually a bit more deeper and it's behind the intention behind.



Sure, yeah.



So. You've been doing this podcast now for four years and it's as a podcast goes or any sort of social media content period goes, it always has this beginning period of where it takes some traction discharge to get it to go. And when it gets the attraction, then it starts getting more exponential, but to be able to do it for four years and not have the drive for getting some sort of monetary value from it. And you, you spoke about impact, but I was wondering if you could dive in a bit deeper and tell me what actually validated you to keep going with your idea and what kept you pushing to keep going on your podcast each week, or I don't know how often you do your episodes, but I would think weekly, if it's 200 episodes, what kept you going from step to step? Because even aside from mission driven podcasts, a lot of people, when they start some sort of social media contact or a podcast or a YouTube channel, they tend to fall off, especially in the first year.



Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to, I'll throw a bunch of things at you. Number one, just by nature. I'm a grinder. Like I don't get super excited and chase one thing and then get demoralized and quit. Like I'm really curious. So I, you know, I'll filter a bunch of things. But when I commit that I'm going to do this thing, like I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it for a long period of time.

And I know that the power like exponential value comes when sticking with something for a very long time. If I'm not sure if you're familiar with James Clear Atomic Habits, but he's got this phenomenal section in there on the power of the 1%, you know, and if you just seek to get 1% better at something every time you do it, you know, the growth ends up being exponential over a long period of time.

And so what's the quote, people grossly overestimate what they can do in a short period of time and vastly underestimate what they can do in a long period of time. And so, you know, the year was my initial commitment. I'm going to do this for a year.

And by the end of the first year, number one, I had learned so much personally, like I was saying, this is reaching parents. This is helping my parenting. This is fulfilling a need in me for curiosity, because, okay. Let's be honest, as a pastor, I've been teaching basic theology, basic Bible. I have like a three or four year loop of content and I try to like, you know, put a different, put a different feel on the content each time, but like I'm not being challenged in theological depths.

As I teach 12 and 15 year olds, like I've been around this circle over and over again, their culture changes. It throws me for a loop, but this podcast, like there's something new to dive into every week. And so I can talk and I can pull on somebody who is an expert in sensory processing disorder, because it's something that I've got a challenge within my own house.

And I can just pick their brain and I know, as I'm picking the brain because I'm pretty humble and honest in my podcast that I'm not a parenting expert. And the last time I was an expert was about three months before my first daughter was born. And so you know, I know that I've got a wealth of wisdom because of experiences that I've been through, not experience, but experiences that I've been able to reflect on.

But I know that I have so much to learn. And I have never been at the exact moment of parenting journey that I am right now. You know, I've got four kids, they're vastly different. I have an 18 year old that just left the house. It's a whole new world of figuring out what, like how do you parent an adult?

Like, so there's always something to learn. And so I realized this is helping me. I realized that this is a very good use of my time. Even as far as the church goes, like it's helping the moms and dads I am specifically face-to-face with, which means that it's helping their kids.

And then also there was this realization I'm just figuring this stuff out. You know, it's been a year. And when I go back and listen to those first, you know, 25, 26 episodes , I did a lot of monologue. I didn't do a ton of diet or interviews that first year as I was learning the equipment. And it's like, Oh gosh, this is a bit painful, like the content's good but the presentation, you guys really must have wanted to hear this just through it.  And so, you know, it was really like, I had so many new ideas by the end of year one that it really started carrying me through. And I honestly didn't see growth until about 14 to 15 months into it. I stayed in that low hundreds for a year and then a year later was over a thousand, you know, and then a year later was you know, over 2000 a year, you know, like I said, pre COVID, we were up to 3000.

So there's been over 300,000 downloads of my podcast over the time.



Was there anything significant that contributed to that growth from the low hundreds to a thousand?



Yes. There are a couple significant things. And number one, I have basically done this without spending a dime on advertising, unless you count paying somebody to put a picture on social media, which I don't think I'm getting any value out of.

Like, I, that's just not where my audience is coming from. Here's what changed. Initially, I think my podcast was titled Let's Parent On Purpose. I changed it in Apple podcast for a time to Let's Parent On Purpose then with the colon Christian marriage parenting and discipleship talk. And so now all of a sudden, if somebody types in Christian marriage, I'm one of the two or three podcasts that pop up first, if they type in Christian parenting, I'm one of the two or three podcasts that type up first.

And so I know that was a major shift. And so people who are looking to start podcasts right now? Like, you know, I talked to a friend who's wanting to start one and he was asking about, you know, I want to call it unquenchable because it sounds like it's such an intriguing name. And his specific podcasts was on something really niche and unique.

And I told him, listen, if you don't already have a name or you don't already have a following or you're not going to spend a ton of money on advertising, a really niche, like vague podcast title name gets you zero listens because nobody's going to like a title nobody's going to just randomly type in the word unquenchable to find their podcasts. So like put your fun podcast title there a bit as best you can, you know,  you're dancing this line of keyword stuffing and getting away with it in your podcast title, but I know that was the single biggest change. 

And then besides that was just a continual call to my listeners.If you like this, listen, you can put it on YouTube or you can put it on Twitter or Facebook, but here's what I really want you to do. I want you to stop right now and text this episode, share it with somebody specifically that you think would benefit from it. And so that was kind of like my continual call is like, get very, very personal.

I only, I don't care if it's just one person. But share this specific episode with one person that you think would be helped.



That is really smart. And that's a great way to build referrals as well.






One thing that I've been doing on my own podcast is just asking for reviews and I've seen already how that's worked.

Yeah. So yeah. Good, good, good solid tips.

So you've got 200 episodes out now. And it's, mind you, I want to put this out there and it feels that I'm not really familiar with myself. So it's a, it's a completely different world to me, in a sense. Do you have any episodes that you kind of think back to, and I want to kind of tie this back to what you said a little bit ago. Right? You said one of the biggest things that you get out of your own podcast are the lessons that you learned from other people. Right? And I see that with my own podcast. I think the networking opportunities and the knowledge that I've gained from some of my guests far exceeds any sort of monetary value.

So in your own sense, like from your 200 something episodes that you've had out now, are there any specific episodes that you feel like go back and kind of think that, "Oh yeah, this was just an amazing episode and I learned so much."



Oh my gosh. Like, I feel like I have a year's worth of those at this point. I really like, let me give, just give you a for instance, because it came to mind recently. We have a guy here in our town that has one of the most successful Chick-fil-A franchises in the entire nation. He owns two stores. He's about to get his third. And when he does, he's one of the first 20 operators that has three stores.

My daughter works for him and she is so passionate about it that she wants to become a Chick-fil-A operator and she's got a very good shot at it. She's just really good at the job. And I, and I asked him "Hey, would you come on?" Because I feel like. The thing that's so impressive about Chick-fil-A is you're getting teenagers, like you're running your store 95% on teenagers who are barely making minimum wage and putting out a consistent product that is of high quality, high service, high value, and a high consistent experience.

And I just like, can we talk about how you do that? And like, Are there things that parents could pick up from this. And so.



I also want to add one thing there as well, and I just found this out recently, but to become a Chick-fil-A operator in the first place, it's more selective than actually getting in an Ivy league college.



Yeah. Yeah. So, it is. And you don't own the Chick-fil-A. You, but it's crazy I think like you pay $10,000. And then you split profits 50 50 with Chick-fil-A. So,



Which is nuts.



It's insane, especially they did in our store to tell you like how good it is, when COVID hit, they went to straight drive-through, which means they basically maximize profit.

Like all of these other restaurants are like, Oh no, we can't have people in. They're like, bring it on. This is our specialty. My daughter works there. So like, I get numbers from her. They put 329 people through their drive-through in one hour at lunchtime, a couple of months ago, it's like seven seconds per person at the window.

And they, you know, so yeah, like, but anyway, the title of the episode was "Chick-fil-A has a lot to teach us about parenting." And so I, like, I have listened to that episode. I did it. And then I listened to it at least twice more myself. I have a friend who trains people who are in non-profits all over the world and he's kind of like their spiritual care director for them.

And I've had him on four or five times on like teaching us. One of them was like on taming the tongue, like tools for taming the tongue. And this wasn't even so much for like how to get my kid to tame their tongue. It's like, how do I get myself to tame my tongue and the work that he did on that podcast on like teaching us how to notice our feelings and not be led by our feelings, but to notice them and give them validation. Like my goodness. Again, I did the podcast and I probably would have listened to it two or three times, because there's just so much in there. So, and you never know which one it's going to be. That's the thing is like, I've had, I've had some prestige guests on that, like,yeah, it was good, but it was unremarkable.



Prestige, meaning like well-known?



Like in my field, I would think, I would think that they would draw names.

Like, you know, I would think that they would draw people because of who they are. A prestige person. This will be like, you know, a well-known author, somebody that's legitimately got a book.

And, and like, it's like, it's a good interview, but it didn't draw people to my podcasts. Like I, and so that's one of the things that I've realized is that like I can't chase downloads in what I'm doing, but for the kind of value that I'm doing, I need to chase value and not downloads. And if I provide value, then the downloads are going to come and yes, you do have to work your system.

You have to do all of that, but provide the very first thing that has to be on your mind is, how do I give them the most value possible so that if I ever make an ask from them, it won't seem like a big thing at all.



That's not just your field, it's every entrepreneurial field out there, I just want to point that out. Value first and then ask, if there's ever an ask in the first place down the road, as entrepreneurs and especially what this podcast is a central idea to it is value, provide value in any form possible: content, written word, audio, video, this provide value and see how you can make someone else's life better, whether it's spiritually, financially, or any other psychologically, any other aspect out there just trying to make someone else's life better. And it's funny how that works because the world before, I guess this decade, you set such a jaded view of entrepreneurial, entrepreneurism, if that's a word, I'm not sure if I'm using the right word there, but you still have such a jaded view on like entrepreneur rhythm is a take take take, and just like sleazy salespeople or whatnot. But really the core of entrepreneurship is giving value. Right. And then the monetary aspects will come after that.

So I wanted to clear that out right there.



Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it's, it should just be wisdom. Basically, if you've ever read the book, how to win friends and influence people, you should, if you haven't. But basically what he says is like, you know, and, and it kind of goes to the golden rule of Jesus, treat people as you would have them treat you.

And so, like, I don't want to feel like people are manipulating me and that the only reason that they're, I'm in their life is because ultimately they want to get something from me. And so you know, if you take care of people, they'll take care of you. And so, you know, one of the things that I've done for the last couple of years is I have started a mailing list with my podcast.

And some of it is honestly, cause like I don't need a mailing list. I make a paycheck for my church. My church takes care of me fine. Like I said, I want the podcast to cover the expenses of the equipment and everything else, but I don't have a big need, but I realized at some point I might have an ask.

And so I, what I do is I use text to join, which is like 19 bucks a month. And it's , I've written a little PDF. I'll just tell your viewers right now, or your listeners right now. So I've written this, this little ebook called fun family conversations. And I give it out if you want it, you just text the word things, T H I N G S to six, six, eight, six, six. And I'll send you a copy of fun family conversations. I'll also send you a marriage snapshot tool that you and your spouse can look at and kind of do an overview of where your marriage stands. And then every week I send out an email called things for Thursday. And in that is just a, like a three sentence about what this week's podcast is about.

And then there's four or five links to things that I've found that I find are interesting or helpful. And so this is a book I've read. This is an article on the internet.



It sounds similar to Tim Ferriss' five bullet Friday, if you know what that is.



Yeah. He does. He probably got that from me. I'm sure. But yeah, so, here's something interesting, just like, as you, you know, look at the metrics of your viewers, I'll put in a bunch of things I'll put in spiritual articles and everything that, what gets the most clicks is if I put in a recipe.



Why is that, you think?



I don't know. I apparently cause moms are opening up my emails at a higher rate than anybody else. Yeah, I, you know, I put this, it's so weird. Like I put it in a there's just to me like a gee whiz article, one time about biscuits and why like biscuits tastes different in the South than they do anywhere else.

And it turns out that it's like something to do with the wheat that's grown in that area, that they turn into flour. And so I had a listener read that article, go on a trip to North Carolina. And when they came back, they brought me a bag of that flour that makes the kind of biscuits that happen in the South.

And it's like, man, how can you like that person is in? You know, like if I had an ask that person's going to do it, because when they go on vacation, they think about the guy in their podcast ear. When they're buying flour in a store. And so like, that's like, it just feels like a home run when something like that happens.



There's a term for that. And a guy that I look up to in the podcasting space, in online business space, who I'm actually going to have on for an episode in about a month from now, his name is Pat Flynn and



Oh yeah. Smart, passive income.



Smart Passive income.

So he wrote the book called super fans. Right. And maybe you've heard of that if you know who that is. And super fans and from what it sounds like, the guy that you're talking about is your own personal super fan.

So whenever you're going to make some sort of ask, whenever you do that, your super fans tend to be the ones that really just kind of. They buy from you, they're loyal to you, you know, and they're also ultimately the ones who, whose lives you make the most impact in. And if you're chasing after impact, like you are yourself to know that you have those super fans in the first place, and simply about the way that they're going to talk about you, to their friends and their family and whatnot.

Those super fans, those people , they're going to be the, the lever. The vehicle of where your word is going to pass through, you know, so the key is cherishing it. Right. And I'm still in my early stages compared to you, like, you've been doing this for about four to five years now. Do you have any tips on, and I know maybe it came organically for you, but if you go kind of make it something tangible, how you made somebody or how you helped somebody become one of your own super fans.



Good question.  Okay. I'll start with just I'll give you a, for instance, I had a family, so this was early in the emails period. This was like six months into me doing this email. And in the email, I think I had just mentioned, Hey, like, As I've been doing this, it's gone beyond the scope of the church.

It's like the cost to bring it to the world is more than what it costs if I was just doing it for moms and dads and the church. And so I'm just going to start to ask, like, if this is a benefit to you, could you, could you maybe help, like if you're in a place to help support it, could you help support it?

I want to keep everything for free. So that anybody who needs it has access to it. And then I'm just going to ask if you have help or like, if you're in a position to help, then can you help? I had an email sent to me by somebody that I'd never met that just asked two or three questions about it. And then I didn't hear anything for a month. And then I'm driving actually a church bus to a church camp. And I, and on a break, I checked my email and this lady says my husband and I, we're actually almost empty nesters, but we really believe in what you're doing. And we're committed to supporting you for $250 a month for the next year, for the next year.

So on my Patreon page, I was asking people to do a dollar an episode up to if you're really, really into this like $12 an episode. And they did. For 16 months, $250 a month. So what did I do to, yeah, it was amazing. It was like that one person was more than everybody else was in my case. And I actually, the nice thing about it was because I had some others involved and because they were doing it too, in my case, because I didn't need to make a living off of it.I could stop chasing support. 

At that point, it's like, okay, I'm set. I've got what I need. Now I can dive back into the podcast and I can get more creative and I can make more tools for people and I can help more people. And so, you know, like with anybody in an entrepreneurship, I think one of the things I would just encourage and caution them is like, make sure you remember the why behind your doing it behind why you're doing it.

And if it's just to make more money than you have. There's no end to that. And there's no satisfaction to that. And so if in your business, like you get to a place where, you know what, this was my goal and I'm covering it. And now I don't have to chase money. The end of the things that are truly my passion, then you're going to have a much more fulfilled life.

If you're passionate...  (inaudible)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If your passion is solely based on making more money than I did last week on here, dude, I mean, we've met these people in life and they're empty shells. Especially as a pastor I've met , the amount of people I know that were financially successful and lost their wife, lost their children, lost everything that they actually should have valued, is just that the stories are endless in there. And so remember your why and if you, and if you achieve that, if you achieve that financial independence, then like celebrate it and live, live your life for something meaningful, not the next dollar bill.



Absolutely. It's a trap really that a lot of people tend to get caught up on, especially younger entrepreneurs. It's something common that I see, they're always chasing that fix of a Lamborghini or the next watch or something, you know, and I know a few entrepreneurs that I've met that way, that just want to build a bigger and bigger empire or make more and more money, but really it's just a dead end. Right. 

I mean no meaningful impact. And you're not any happier for it. You might get pleasure, but you won't be any happier. And it's a very common thing you say. So it's definitely not the first time that I'm saying it's not the first time that it's been said. I mean, it's a very common thing to be said, but...



You know, Jesus says what profits a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul.

And I think that's really good. I was, I was reading a book recently called Drive. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it by Daniel Pink, really good book. I would highly recommend it. So I read a lot of books that are like in leadership development and stuff like that. And this one was about like what truly motivates people.

And he talks about like motivation 1.0 is like, I'm a caveman. I need to survive. So like, I need food to survive and I need to like kill the things that are going to kill me and I need shelter. And then for the industrial revolution, basically like motivation 2.0 is the carrot and the stick, like I need this person to punch out widgets in my factory.

And so if they punch out 200 widgets and I need them to do 250, I'm going to reward them more for punching out 250. And I'm going to punish them, if not, but, but for the world that we live in now, that kind of carrot stick world doesn't work as much anymore. And so he talks about a different motivation, like for, for the kind of world society.

And so like, if you have, this is something I recognize about myself, it's like, why am I content to live as an associate pastor in a small town when I really like, there's a lot of things I can do. I mean, I know I kind of have a business line and everything, and he points out three things like what do people really want?

Autonomy, mastery and purpose. And so if in my job, and this is, this is the entrepreneur's heart, right? If in my job, I can have autonomy, which means like, I get to choose the way that I do it. If I can have mastery and it doesn't, not mastery from the sense of like, I can do this in my sleep, but it's like, I'm here and the thing that I want to do is here plus one. And so like, I'm really intrigued and motivated to figure out how to do that. It's not so far beyond me that I can't get there and it's not so far below me that I lose my interest. So mastery is chasing just beyond how I know how to do it. And then the third is purpose.

Like, you know, that there's a story I know about like, you know, three brick layers of like, what are they doing? One of them is, you know, like putting bricks on you know, putting on what am I doing? I'm stacking this brick, the other one, what am I doing? I'm building this wall, the third one, what am I doing? I'm building a chapel. And so like the bigger, the picture of what you're doing and the why behind it. You can grind through the hard things. And so that autonomy, mastery and purpose. And so for me, what I’m seeking to do for my family is can I materially provide for them in a way that meets their needs?

And then God's blessed me with a brain he's blessed me with a spirit. He's blessed me with resources and connections. And how can I live the most amount of my life for the greatest purpose possible.



So what's, how big of a scope is your purpose? I think, yeah, because like, this is something that I've heard from other people as well, and maybe not always in a spiritual sense, but always in a purpose driven sense where the scope of your purpose, the bigger it is.

And oddly enough, you'll get close to it from what I hear statistically, and you might get about 90% of the way, but most people, that purpose scope that they're reaching for, they never fully achieve, but I've heard it as small as like your purpose is to provide for your family. And I've heard it as big as your purpose is to continue human civilization.

Right. So what is the scope of your purpose?



Okay, so I'm looking up on my wall here. My short-term long-term in life goals. And so then I've got like two year goals, three year goals, 10 year goals and life goals. And by the way, there's 10 year goals I know are complete fiction because like listening to the last 10 years of my life, I got a child that had cancer, like things change I know that, but you still have to have a direction.

So on my life goals, there's five different areas, spiritually, family, professionally, financially, and physically. And so my life goals. Spiritually. Live in greater love and dependence on Jesus. The longer I'm alive and reflect Christ's character to the world. For my family, passionately, faithfully love my wife and point her to Christ until death, children and grandchildren, children of high character and love of Jesus who will benefit the world. I want my kids to be a blessing to the world.

Professionally, multiply disciples, multiply leaders, multiply churches, equip and empower families. And then catalyze resources for maximum kingdom impact. Financially, live debt free live, simply live generously, leave resources for my generations to come. And then physically, train and take care of my body and mind for maximum usefulness over my life, as far as it depends on me. And so I know I can't help a car crash. I can't help a brain stroke, but as far as it depends on me. I want to take care of the one body that I've been given in this life.



So it starts centrally from yourself and it expands over to ultimately the world.






Yeah. It seems like the, in order of importance, you and your family, and then your community, your grandkids, and then leaving behind some sort of legacy that impacts the world in a greater way, but it also searched from your town as well. Right. So when you mean riches and more places.



Right. And here's something else that I realize I'm an introvert by nature, which is really weird because I'm in a very public position.

I'm kind of 50 50, but I realized I get my energy by being alone. I get my energy for people by being alone. Other people like get their energy from people, people drain me. And I know they say there's some kind of principle where you can really only maintain about 120 actual relationships before others start to drop off or you just start to really feel overwhelmed.

So that's part of the challenge of our digital world. Like. How many thousands of Facebook friends do you have, like, you can't keep track of them. And so one of the reasons that like, even the church that I'm in is not a mega church. I have no desire to be in a mega church. I don't want to be a pastor of somebody if I don't know their name.

And so this podcast, part of it is I want to live my life in such a way where I can have deep, deep impact on individuals. But then have as broad of impact as possible on as many as I can. And so this is kind of the mix of how that works for me. And then like, actually I'm launching a new podcast in January of this year with that mission in India, that I mentioned that I wanted to go be a missionary in India 20 years ago.

But my wife died and I had a three-year-old girl and I couldn't go. Well, I've stayed involved with them. I've gotten a lot of people involved. There's been hundreds of thousands of dollars from my area given to that place. And there's a ton of amazing stories of orphans lives' who've been changed, of widows and lepers who've been changed.

And so I'm leveraging my position and influence and the podcasts that I have to launch this new one, because one of them is like, I just love talking with the leader of this. And so I drove up to Georgia, took my podcast equipment, hit record, and we just did 15 minutes story after 15 minutes story, we're launching a podcast called stories of hope and it just kind of tells us lives being transformed.

And so that's going to impact a whole another group of people in a few ways. One is like exposing this ministry, but the other is like, if this leader dies, all of these stories die with him, but not if I've got them recorded. And so



Almost like an archive.



Yeah, absolutely. It is. Yeah.



That, that's really interesting.

Do you want to, I guess down the road then eventually expand fully into podcasts. Like you have one now to later and then maybe just go fully into the podcasting world and see how many people you can impact with, or do you have some other, so,



So right now, my kids. I have one that graduated, but I've got a 12 year old boy, an 11 year old boy and a nine year old girl.

And I get to be their youth pastor, which means that like I'm at a job where I get to go to every camp that they go to. I get to lead them on mission trips. I get to be in their friend's world. Like I get paid to help shape the world of my kids' friends. And so for the time being, there's nothing that I can think of that is a greater use of my time, effort and energy than that.

But in the meantime, as doing the podcast gets easier for me. Yeah, I'm starting another one and starting a network and I'll tell you, here's where I would really like, and I might seriously do this. I'm trying to wrestle through the hell.

What I would want to monetize my podcast for, truly monetize it, is to pay for a legitimate full-time assistant that could not just handle the podcast, but the other like church things that like, I don't need to be the one doing, you know, so the church is going to be much more limited in their income of what they can do. But if I could hire somebody that can like, just do all of these mundane things so that I can be creative, I can be personally interactive with people and I can bring the most value possible.



Do what you do best.



Yeah. That excites me. A whole lot more than any other reason I can think of to monetize right now. Cause the, you know, the thing that you cannot buy, you cannot, you can't create more time except, you know, if I can, like, you know, if I, yeah. If I can pay somebody to do something that I was going to have to do, I just created time.

And that's a really good use of my money. And so.



That's good. It's almost like your business fundamentals are coming from a need of wanting more time and being more creative rather than the main reason that many people start a business in the first place, which is simple monetary gain. So it's nice seeing almost that you're kind of figuring this out on the go.

And along the journey, and it's coming from a deep ingrained sense of making an impact and being more creative and doubling down on the things that you're good at. But at the same time, like just speaking to you, I know you've done your research on that end as well. And knowing what smart passive income is, and you probably know who Gary Vee is and some of the other figures in that space but you really taken in whatever lessons you've learned and you've completely shifted the focus from the monetary sense and the monetary gain and shifted it to just pure, pure value based game, you know, and how it can impact and how I can give value. And that's something that I think many entrepreneurs need to model their own brand, their own business after as well.



Yeah, I mean, in the end, you don't want to be successful and then hate yourself for what, you know, what you've become to be successful. And there's a lot of need in this world. If you can use your creativity, passion, and, and I think that's the thing, it’s like, you're not going to find ultimately fulfilled by becoming so financially independent that you can just get a bag and travel anywhere you want whenever you want.

Like, that's going to be fun for a little bit of time. I absolutely agree with that. But the thing that's going to really make you come alive is when you start to see your gifts and your abilities really impacting and changing the world. Like you think you come alive cause you make a deal that, you know, has five figures or six figures or something like that.

Now all of a sudden, see what that's like when you make some kind of deal like that. That changes generations for a family or a village or something like that. Like that's when you're really living.



And in that same sense. And if you had to give our youth one advice and whether they're spiritual or not, just some sort of basic life advice that you've learned through entrepreneurship, and I guess someone wants to be an aspiring entrepreneur like you are perhaps they have a certain job in mind or a certain field in mind that they're really passionate about. Perhaps they want to start a podcast or a blog. Perhaps, they just want to find some sort of purpose, mission driven work for themselves. What piece of advice, and I think you're the perfect person to ask this to being a youth pastor and all. What piece of advice would you give somebody and in a non spiritual lens and more of a life lens.



Okay. All right. So I spent a lot and I'm gonna do this with, with manhood. Okay. Although. But any ladies listening, you're not going to be like, this doesn't apply to me. All right. But I really have spent a lot of time wrestling through, like, what does it mean to be a man? Because I don't, I don't want to train people in some caricature of like, just because you have muscles or, you know, you're  any of these like stupid stereotypes and there's a lot of stupid spiritual stereotypes too.

And so we do something where we invest in, like, I've done this with my boys. And then with all of our students men and women, where we try to give them a, like a definition of manhood. And so  it's an acronym, R E A L and it's, there's a spiritual side, but I think even if you're not spiritual, you'll be able to understand a real man.

R E A L. R is rejects passivity. E is expects God's greater reward. A is accepts responsibility and then L is leads courageously. And so for my little kids, what I say as you're a man, that means that God made you strong to take care of others. Okay. So let me just really quickly unpack this.

Rejects passivity. Like you don't sit around waiting for things to be done. I think that like the plague of modern manhood is they're passive. Like they're just lacking courage and waiting for somebody else to do stuff when things need to be done. So don't do that. And, and again, like if you're a lady I'm not telling you to sit around and be passive, that's not your role either, but I.

Expects God's greater reward. The problem that most of us have is that we want instantaneous gratification. And so I'm willing to be rewarded now and pay later. Like it's the whole premise of credit cards in our entire society, but if you really want to be successful, you invest now knowing that the reward will come later.

And so a big part of that is like, learn to lead yourself before you're going to be able to lead a business before you're going to be able to lead a family before you're going to be able to lead an institution or anybody else. Learn to lead yourself, like figure out how to take care of yourself. And so the third one then R E A L rejects passivity, expects God's greater reward, accepts responsibility.

Things don't have to be your fault to be your responsibility. And so like, let me give you, I'll just be really transparent with you. I was abused by a family member when I was a child. And it took me a lot of years of wrestling through this. And I know that it wasn't my fault. When I was little I thought it was my fault. Like I really had to wrestle through a lot of broken stuff. I know it wasn't my fault, but it was my responsibility to get well, it wasn't that other person's responsibility to get well, it was my, like, if I didn't want that to be the defining thing in my life, then I had to accept the responsibility to move forward.

And I feel like we're in a culture right now, politically in every way of like, who can we find to blame for things? Let me, let me wait for people to screw up and let me sit on my butt and then let me blame them. And if, if you're going to be a mature adult, if you're going to be successful as an entrepreneur extreme ownership by Jocko Willink, I can't remember his name.

Extreme ownership is these two Navy seals that wrote a book. It's phenomenal. It's basically accept the responsibility. Like it, maybe it's not, maybe it is your fault and if so, yeah,

Maybe it was your fault and if so, absolutely accept responsibility. Even if it's not your fault, you can still take the responsibility to make it better.

And then the last one is lead courageously. And with that, the reason that you lead courageously, the reason that you need courage is because there are things to be afraid of. And so, you know, it's funny, cause the Bible says all the time, like fear not, fear not, fear not. And the reason that it says that is because there's a lot of things that are terrifying.

And so courage doesn't mean that I'm not afraid. Courage doesn't mean that I don't know how it's going to work out. Courage doesn't mean that it's going to work out. Courage means that I'm not going to be stuck in my fear. I'm going to be willing to step forward, regardless of that. So leading courageously being the one that like stick your neck out and you know what maybe gets your, you know, your nose busted, but maybe you're the first one to see the view of the new thing that is not right now that that's going to be.

And so I think if, if, if somebody would take those four principles rejects passivity, expects God's greater reward. Or, or even if you're not spiritual expect the greater reward of you know, delayed consequences. So rejects passivity, expects God's greater reward, accepts responsibility, leads courageously.

If you'll center your life around those principles, your individual startup venture may not succeed. But you will succeed and you won't be afraid of that failure. Failure is just an opportunity to learn how to do it different another way.



Absolutely. And those four points I completely 100% agree with.

I've learned different ways to say them, but all the principles of what you said are exactly the same, you know, it's basically don't victimize yourself, be brave. I mean, there's so many different ways you can say what you said, right? But I've learned those lessons throughout time from people that have had much more experience than I, and I abide by those principles 100%. And it's good that you've found a way to kind of make that journey from boyhood to manhood a way that's tangible and easy to explain. You know, there have been books on books, on books written about just that subject, but it can really just be summed down with those 4 sentences.



Yeah. They really can. And then, so my role at this point in my life is not only to do those, but every time I have an opportunity to celebrate that in somebody else's life. To speak into their life. Because man speaking words of encouragement into somebody, you're breathing jet fuel into their life of the good things that you want them to do.



How do you go, and I want to start wrapping this up here. So I'm going to ask you a few flyer question. How, what kind of, like in terms of encouraging words and just kind of helping push people and celebrating them when they do have those four principles that they start applying to their own life. What kind of, I guess, methods do you use to kind of help those people keep moving forward?

Something that I'm struggling with myself right now is being able to encourage them. Or my friends or family members, or even my listeners that listen to this podcast to encourage them in a way that's actually impactful rather than just hollow words.



Yeah. So remember that Chick-Fil-A podcasts that I referenced? Nathan Buchanan's his name, and he had a saying, that's just stuck with me.

Specificity drives accountability. Accountability drives performance. And so in my encouragement, I want to be as specific as possible. And so with, if I'm around boys and I see that they went and they picked up something and they weren't asked, I want to be like, Hey man, I just want to encourage you. Like that was a real man thing to do. You, you accepted the responsibility and you did that without being asked. If it's somebody who you're coaching and your client, you know, you can say, you know what, it's really courageous that you took this step. And I want to, I wanna just say that I'm proud of you that no matter how it works out, like I see that boldness in you and you're going to go really far if you continue to do that.

So I think that the way you can do, and I also, like I bought just like from Vista print, this giant stack of postcards, and I try to, when I'm in a good rhythm and life is not COVID crazy. Take 30 minutes a week. Just with my stack of postcards and write five or six sentence encouragements to the people that I know.

Like I just, you know, who's on my mind that I saw that just needs a word of encouragement because we're in it, we're in a time when people don't get letters. And so, you know, you write anything handwritten and hand to somebody.



It be meaningful and not only that it'll stick deeper as well.



Right. Hmm. Yep.



That's good. Very good applicable pieces of advice there that I'll probably end up using myself. I wanted to close this off with one final question here. And this is a question that I tend to ask a lot of people that come on my show. You can take it as vague as you want, or you can take it as specific as you want.

So feel free to answer whichever way feels more comfortable to you, but you're definitely a bit older than the general demographic that I have on this podcast. I mean, I've had people as old as 68, 70 years old on my podcast before, but it skews around the age of anywhere between 25 to 35. Right. So from your experiences in life, and you've been through a lot. From what you've been through, what you've learned, all the different experiences that you've had, if you could use those experiences and sum them up in a way to give one lesson that came out of your life from all the changes. What lesson would you give? And it could be someone that's really advanced. That's listening to this lesson. It could be someone that's a complete beginner, but as long as it comes from a place of authenticity from you, that's what's important.



Okay. Let me quickly say, just because like, I can't not, I've talked about my faith. So from 25 to 35, I buried a wife. I moved twice. I remarried. I was told that my son has leukemia and I began the journey of walking through three and a half years of leukemia while adopting a mentally ill child. That was my 10 year span of that time. So first off, I would just say that like, Jesus is real and Jesus is my peace and my hope when there's no hope in that day. And there's some really dark days in that nothing that I said was trite. And so like, if your hope is in circumstances here, man, you're going to go through it. And so I would say that. But number two just if, learning to have an optimistic resilience that things won't always be like they are right now.

No matter how they are, like, if it's great today, then soak up the fact that it's great today. And remember that things won't always be like that. And that's okay. But if this is the deepest, darkest time of your life, I think it's really good to remember that things won't always be like this. 

This is a season. And seasons have a purpose. And if, and if you'll sit in the season and you'll grieve as you need to, and you'll heal as you need to. And you'll not numb the pain away, you know, through listen, whether it's through drugs, alcohol, pornography, or just checking your Instagram feed 6,000 times, don't numb it away, there's a purpose for it. That grief monster won't stay. Like he'll visit for a while and he'll leave. But if you can have an optimistic resilience that like, it's not always going to be like it is right now. And that's okay. I think, I think where people collapse is when they start locking on to, it's always going to be like this and, and that's just, nothing is ever always going to be like this.

And so for me, that gives me a tremendous amount of hope to get through the day. Do I have the grace to get through today? Yes. Okay. Then I'll worry about tomorrow, when tomorrow comes.



That's good. Optimistic resilience.

The fact is like, whenever someone's really in a dark deep down place or just struggling I mean life has waves, right? It has its ups, its downs. And you come to realize that the ups are even much more appreciated if you have the downs.

And  just to bring this to something that I learned quite recently there's this word, and it's been thrown around a lot, but it's called the reticular activation system and whatever you focus or whatever you think about the most is what you're going to focus on.

Right. The way you're describing using things to kind of numb your pain whether it's pornography, drugs, alcohol, mindless social media scrolling, whatever that is. The way you're describing that and to get past that pain that you're already feeling and move on to brighter days. I feel at least, and maybe you have a different view on it, but I feel at least the best way to kind of move past that pain is to observe it rather than react to it. And observe it in a way where you realize in your head that you might not be feeling the best you're feeling right now, or that yeah, it's a crappy situation to be in, but at the same time being very present, you know, because if you think about the pain that you're feeling, either stems from the past, or it stems from something that you're worried about that's going to happen in the future. But the truth is you're only in the present right now and all that matters right now is the present and that isn't happening yet, or it's already happened, right? You are who you are right now in this very present moment. And that alone being present should allow you to kind of detach yourself from that. And not even in a way that you were escaping, but rather just observing to just pull yourself out of that dark place in the first place.

Now I'm not trying to discredit or lower the impact of the kind of trauma and whatever else people have felt. Right. But I myself have come from a place from where years on years, I was deeply depressed or had some other psychological thing going on in my head. And I always thought there was something broken or wrong with me.

And that was until I started to realize that all of these problems in my head were just overblown from past traumas or future worries. And the moment that I started focusing on the present and for religious people, that's done through prayer for maybe less spirit, less religious people it's done through meditation.

And they're both really both sides of the same coin. But that's really, I think presence is really, what's helped me draw through that and I think if anybody were to whether, whether you're someone that's a spiritual person or not a spiritual person to be just focusing on the present way in whatever way you can do that.

And I strongly believe is one of the best ways to move past that darkness and that rough time. And to have that optimistic resilience, to know that if you're able to bring yourself to the present long enough, good times are ahead.



Yeah. Yeah, I like that. That you say, notice your feelings because your feelings are absolutely telling you something.

But they're not, they're not telling you everything. And so I want to notice them, but I want to separate myself enough from them to where I'm not letting my feelings be the driver of my life.



That's exactly it. Thank you so much for coming on today, Jay, it was a pleasure.






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